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11198. anomie - 7/17/2013 2:28:08 AM He was not told that, Arky. Doesn't matter that you want to believe it or how many times you claim it. This hatred, blame, and derision of everything Zimmerman is unreasonable and unfair and is based on deceitful accusations made by you and others as to the events and as to his intent. It's as though the truth doeasn't matter. Our ideals of due process and justice don't matter. YOu give permission for people to be attacked and beaten for doing nothing but watching out for their neighborhood (yes dammit I know it was Martin's place too). So, no I am not willfully misconstruing anything. I don't know what happened. But the misconstruing on your part would be worthy parody if it weren't so sad. There is some fundamental dishonesty in the aggression I see here against Zimmerman. It's the purest hate I've seen on any discussion board ever. What bothers me most, however is that the vitriol is unprincipled. For one thing, no matter our race, we could not live very well in a society described by your right-to-attack creed. 11199. iiibbb - 7/17/2013 3:17:11 AM if he's man enough to shoot someone in a life and death struggle he's man enough to be criticized 11200. arkymalarky - 7/17/2013 3:54:46 AM Man this is bizarre. Yes he was. Even his most rabid supporters don't argue that fact. 11201. arkymalarky - 7/17/2013 3:55:44 AM and if you think this is pure hate you live a very sheltered life. 11202. judithathome - 7/17/2013 6:30:48 AM What bothers me most, however is that the vitriol is unprincipled. For one thing, no matter our race, we could not live very well in a society described by your right-to-attack creed.
But we ARE expected to live just fine and dandy in YOUR right-to-shoot-anyone-we-feel-threatened-by society?
What's wrong with this picture?
No one asked me if people could run around my state armed to the teeth...I didn't have a say in the matter.
11203. iiibbb - 7/17/2013 11:19:17 AM Anomie cannot conceive that Martin was wronged somehow in this tragedy.
Black and White paradox.
The fact of the matter is that this situation is fucked up almost by definition.
Zimmerman is "innocent" by that doesn't mean that he didn't do something wrong... we'll probably see it bear out in some sort of civil case against Zimmerman where the bar isn't quite so high.
When we'll have two juries in apparent disagreement and Anomie's head will subsequently explode. 11204. iiibbb - 7/17/2013 11:46:23 AM I'm not even anti-gun. In fact I am one of the most vehement pro-gun people that's been on this board. I don't think government is capable of protecting people everywhere, all the time.
But now I can probably never have another discussion with Judith about responsible gun ownership where Zimmerman's name isn't going to pop up; who's actions were legal, but irresponsible.
If you think that's hate, then grow skin. 11205. judithathome - 7/17/2013 7:01:26 PM I resent that, frankly...you and I have discussed guns many times without rancor and we know one another's positions...for you to assume I will be unable to discuss things in the future without me throwing around this case is prejudging me.
I guess what you're saying is that I am just another hysteric who is forever tainted by my prejudice...has it ever occurred to you that I am probably the only posting here who's lost a son recently and that it just might be hitting me a little harder than it should have?
A mother lost her son needlessly....people seem to forget that she and others might be a little upset over that fact.
11206. iiibbb - 7/17/2013 7:10:44 PM Aw shucks Judith... you'd be right to bring up Zimmerman... my points are usually predicated on most people being responsible and making correct decisions.
But even if you personally can avoid the topic of Zimmerman... the public in general is still going to have that asshat's face in at least the back of their mind when talking about concealed carry or other gun rights. 11207. Jenerator - 7/17/2013 7:50:15 PM I heard an interesting analysis of this case on KERA yesterday. Basically the facts don't matter; it's our reaction to this which matters. And our reaction is indicative of our stance on race, racism and racial inequality.
So, if a person makes an informed decision based on the facts of the case, and supports that decision of the jury, s/he is a racist.
So ridiculous. 11208. arkymalarky - 7/17/2013 8:07:09 PM the facts matter completely. the question is when you have a right to use deadly force, and the answer to that is getting blurrier and blurrier. race is significant question in terms of what prompted Zimmerman to follow Martin in the first place. getting out of his car after being advised not to continue to follow Martin, then shooting him in an altercation, goes to questions of gun rights. 11209. Jenerator - 7/17/2013 8:11:41 PM I don't know. To me it is entirely reasonable if, while monitoring your neighborhood as a guard, to follow someone not recognized and who fits the description of a recent burglar. Furthermore, if that person then darted around buildings and ran, it would be plausible that that person was up to know good.
11210. Jenerator - 7/17/2013 8:12:17 PM *no 11211. Jenerator - 7/17/2013 8:13:50 PM And having that belief - which is reasonable - doesn't make me a racist.
I have followed kids down the hall who were acting suspiciously. Some of these kids ran from me, too.
And that running made their behavior even more suspicious. 11212. arkymalarky - 7/17/2013 8:22:15 PM that whole compulsion to jump to "I'm not a racist" is a very annoying sideshow of this whole affair. this is about a dead kid and the guy who shot him. it's not about all the white people who want to shout about how not racist they are for thinking Zimmerman should have walked. 11213. iiibbb - 7/17/2013 9:01:55 PM Message # 11209 I don't think Zimmerman actions were inherently racist.
For me, everything turns on the fact that he followed and engaged a suspected "evil-doer" in the dark, alone, and wound up killing him...
... without those particular facts in play I would likely be fully inclined to side with Zimmerman.
The racism thing is tiring because I hear a lot of stories like this one...white woman disses famous black musician"
But at the end of the story I have to ask... as a 200 lb 6 ft white male... what makes him so sure that she'd give me her real floor number?
I'm pretty introverted. I don't talk to people on elevators... or minimally.
There was another story I heard where a white guy was passing a homeless man who'd been shaking every passer-by's hand. He declined. The homeless man was enraged that he was so racist as not to shake a black man's hand. In reality, the guy didn't want to shake the hand of a man who'd been shaking perhaps a 100 hands for fear of getting a cold or flu.
At risk of sounding insensitive, there are a lot of people who simply view the world through the lenses of victimhood... they perceive each slight as racially motivated... in reality I'm just not particularly chummy with any strangers in public. 11214. iiibbb - 7/17/2013 9:09:27 PM I got in another back-and-fourth with a guy lamenting about the black experience in America because I felt, that all other things being equal... single mothers had a tougher row to hoe in society than someone who is black.
He could not agree less, and people piled on me for missing the point... but they utterly missed mine. 11215. arkymalarky - 7/17/2013 9:49:40 PM I don't get on elevators with strange men by myself even now. it doesn't matter what color they are or how big they are or how old I am or how old they are. I also take a lot of precautions when I'm out in public that I think are just average type precautions, no matter who it is. 11216. judithathome - 7/17/2013 10:58:57 PM Furthermore, if that person then darted around buildings and ran, it would be plausible that that person was up to know good.
How is that so plausible? He was visiting the fathers girlfriend's residence, possibly unfamiliar with which apartment he was headed for in the dark. You can bet that if someone started following me in the dark, I'd run, too...not an excuse o shoot him.
We have only the word of one man that Martin was doing these things....peering into houses, hiding in bushes, throwing the first punch...the jury believed that man and found him not guilty...they didn't find him innocent. 11217. vonKreedon - 7/18/2013 12:15:48 AM If only Martin had run, or even simply continued walking on to his Dad's girlfriend's apartment none of this would have happened.
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