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11556. vonKreedon - 5/6/2015 5:34:54 PM Judith - There is an obvious difference between free expression by racist assholes through a cartoon contest and religious fanatics crashing hijacked planes into buildings. That you are tempted to conflate the two illustrates the weakness of the anti-expression argument.
11557. judithathome - 5/6/2015 5:52:53 PM Well, pardon me. I didn't do well in "debate" in school.
I have seen people make the same argument, though...people who did do well.
Would I be better on firmer ground had those guys in Garland killed a few hundred people while "freely expressing themselves?" 11558. judithathome - 5/6/2015 5:54:20 PM Scratch "better" up there...see, I can't even type things correctly! ;-) 11559. Trillium - 5/6/2015 6:15:53 PM Judith, Garland was chosen for the Free Speech event of Geller's organization because recently Garland hosted a Muslim event at the same venue.
Geller's group took precautions of hiring and paying for their own security. Did the Muslim group have to do the same, or did they rely strictly on Garland public police? Wondering if you know, because I'm curious 11560. Trillium - 5/6/2015 6:25:47 PM Islam opposes abortion and gay rights, alcohol and pork.
In 10 years, after Islam has grown dramatically (at rates similar to the FLDS cult through polygamy, and also through immigration) will you also oppose incendiary gay rights parades?
As scary as this had to be for Garland and the surrounding area, there is a bigger issue that has to be faced sooner or later -- what are the limits and boundaries of free speech and religiously-defined behavior? If you are willing to cave to whatever group is most violent, a lot is going to go, down the road 11561. Trillium - 5/6/2015 6:27:14 PM Islam is also not keen on dogs 11562. arkymalarky - 5/6/2015 6:27:33 PM regarding the strict issue of free speech I agree with 3i, but I'm curious: when the Muslims had that meeting were they drawing ugly pictures of Jesus? 11563. judithathome - 5/6/2015 7:48:18 PM Obviously, I guess I have "misunderstood" the issue...just WHICH freedom of expression is NOT okay in this country? Are ALL religions free to express themselves or just some of them?
If this exhibit had been staged by one of Satan's followers, would it be safe from Christian protestors?
Does that cover doctors who believe in a woman's right to have an abortion? Because I seem to recall some Christians weren't that crazy about doctors who supported THAT freedom of expression...and they murdered the doctors who did.
11564. Trillium - 5/6/2015 7:54:54 PM There is a trade agreement in the works that is mysterious, no one seems to know much about it except that there will not be labor protections.
http://www.newsmax.com/Politics/Trans-Pacific-trade-pact-Obama-Democrats/2015/05/04/id/642370/
"...Sherman, who explained that he opposes what he has seen thus far "because it lacks labor standards and measures to address currency manipulation."
..."This far-reaching free trade agreement amongst 12 nations in the Americas, Oceania, and East Asia, is expected to yield significant results," Schoen writes. "It will bolster the economy and support innovation, create jobs, and increase national security."
It is hard to get information about this, so I have no idea what my opinion is... except that I don't like the lack of public debate 11565. iiibbb - 5/6/2015 8:11:04 PM Message # 11563 I don't care if the "Christians" in question are hypocrites.
I care that the mechanism of free speech in this country is maintained.
My position is that as long as you're not hurting someone you can say whatever you want. The obvious exception to that is the "Fire" in a theater exception. Now... is drawing a cartoon the same as yelling "Fire" in a theater... only if you actually believe that Muslims as a rule are reactionary zealots.
If we limit speech/expression based on the worst conceivable outcomes... no one could speak. 11566. iiibbb - 5/6/2015 8:12:41 PM "Does that cover doctors who believe in a woman's right to have an abortion? Because I seem to recall some Christians weren't that crazy about doctors who supported THAT freedom of expression...and they murdered the doctors who did. "
So you are arguing that we shouldn't speak in the defense of women's rights to abortions because Christian zealots might murder doctors? 11567. Trillium - 5/6/2015 8:16:00 PM Judith, are you aware of the Molly Norris controversy? AFAIK Norris is still in hiding. She was from Seattle, and proposed a "Draw Mohamed Day" back around 2010.
Molly Norris
Wiki Molly Norris
If a bunch of Scientologists had come after South Park cartoonists to murder them? Would the cartoonists have been at fault for incitement of "Fair Game" beliefs? 11568. iiibbb - 5/6/2015 8:16:31 PM He hates these cans 11569. judithathome - 5/6/2015 8:17:55 PM Jesus H. Christ...no, I am not, and frankly, I'm done with "arguing" anything on this forum if THAT is amount of understanding I'm getting here...
Have a nice fucking day. 11570. judithathome - 5/6/2015 8:27:22 PM That last post was addressed to 3i3b's post in response to my post about abortion doctors...it's difficult to post in a forum that was created with 1990's technology when one is used to using "up-to-date" forums.
I would be more than willing to PAY to post here if we even had HTML shortcuts... 11571. iiibbb - 5/6/2015 8:43:10 PM I don't see how you can complain about my level of understanding when you are comparing cartoon drawing to ISIS killing people as an expression of their free speech.
Pot meet kettle.... except I still don't see why anyone saying virtually anything that isn't a specific threat or doesn't immediately incite a riot or panic justifies killing them. You lose me. 11572. judithathome - 5/6/2015 9:50:05 PM I'm sure I do and I see no need to try and explain myself further...hasn't worked thus far and probably never will.
Ta-ta, all.
11573. Wombat - 5/8/2015 10:43:20 PM You could make the argument that since Geller and her crowd do believe that Moslems are reactionary zealots (that is in fact an overly mild characterization of Geller's crowd), their "art" show was equivalent to shouting fire in a crowded theater.
However, I hew to the broad definition of freedom of expression. However, je ne suis pas Geller.
11574. arkymalarky - 5/9/2015 2:28:25 AM Haha! 11575. judithathome - 5/13/2015 3:52:52 PM Expect More Of This Until We Get Off Our Bums And Spend Some Money On Infrastructure
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