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1287. KuligintheHooligan - 9/28/2000 5:53:31 AM Diva, I suppose it really isn't worth discussing further. I don't blame you for not liking these sorts of things, and I know you didn't egg things on. But again, that isn't the point. What I saw of the posts I did read was several people taking their nasty shots at Nostradamus, and him doing it right back. Who started it is really immaterial. Then these same people come around after his banning and talk about how nasty he was! They were nasty too, but I guess someone has a nastiness meter I don't know about and determined that the combined nastiness of half a dozen people or more toward one person was not as offensive (or as easily dealt with) as the nasty of the one, who we don't really like anyway, so let's ban him.
Interesting. 1288. CalGal - 9/28/2000 5:55:52 AM Something else to remember, though--without getting too airy-fairy about it, I don't know of any Mote folks who actively seek to harm the forum. Why should we tolerate someone who is openly trying to do so?
He insulted Christin, Irv, Wabbit, Pelle, and me--not just once in anger, but constantly. Check out his very first post as God, back in the Anniversary thread. He then came back as Nostradamus, played nice for a few days in all the threads but the Policies thread, where he ran a disgusting "investigation" of Indy, in which he posted all sorts of private emails from rabid TT folks.
Indy, who is already busy, leaves. (I'm not suggesting any connection, but I don't think any volunteer needs that type of shit, either.) Nos volunteers for hosting his thread and Gatekeeper. One can wonder if that was his intent all along?
In any event, he is turned down based on his prior privacy violations and the fact that he is already acting like a jerk. He gets pissed and starts shitting all over the forum--including escalating his "investigation" of Indy, making confusing and unpleasant posts to any newbie, and goes beserk in the Inferno. He didn't only attack Diva in that series, hers was just the most personal.
I can see having a legitimate policy issue and raising it. I've certainly done that myself. But that's not what went on here. He just wanted to create trouble and wreak havoc.
Now. Was this a person who wanted to be a part of this forum, or a malicious little screw who enjoys fucking it over? And if the latter, explain to me why this forum should have to tolerate it? Doesn't the above behavior count as abusive?
So don't go around comparing ugly posts. Everyone makes unpleasant posts on occasion (although this was particularly cruel). What is the motive of the person making the post? Anger, temper, meanness--or a desire to destroy the forum itself?
1289. KuligintheHooligan - 9/28/2000 5:56:43 AM Ace,
You know, I typed "lynch" and then looked at it and thought, "That's a guy's name and probably isn't right."
Anyway, actually I don't think you or I have read all the posts and know all the facts. I just note that it is far easier to ban an unlikable person who is only one person than to deal with several who are for all intents and purposes doing basically the same thing.
I also don't think the rules should apply more or less depending on the person in question. That is just plainly stupid. Because in the end we then apply them in the best way for the people we like the best. And shut out the ones deemed unlikeable or unacceptable.
But again, I speak from ignorance. Have a nice evening. 1290. KuligintheHooligan - 9/28/2000 5:58:52 AM CalGal, and interesting post that has many facts of which I was entirely unaware. Like I said, I am speaking basically from ignorance on this matter. 1291. Dusty - 9/28/2000 6:21:48 AM KuligintheHooligan
If Nos had "merely" said something unpleasant to Diva, there shouldn't be a banning.
But CG summarized some of the relevant crap that lead up to the decision.
and there was a lot of it.
wabbit decision was well-justified. 1292. glendajean - 9/28/2000 6:43:06 AM I made a reference to Diva, and I stand by it. I hate it when somebody decides to cause a meltdown. But I particularly hate it when somebody starts talking about the health and/or children of a pregnant woman.
I didn't get into any arguments with Nos. But I appreciate his banning. Usually when people get into fights here, they have the ability to do it and a place to do it that doesn't involve all of us. Nos tried to involve all of us, and particularly someone who was not involved in any way with him. In the past, he trashed another woman in the Mote and treated her in a way that I believe crossed a line, too.
Again, Kuligan, that's my opinion. 1293. bubbaette - 9/28/2000 9:48:46 AM Kuligan is well aware of that past action for which Nos was initially banned because, as I recall, he was part of it and acting as Nos' advisor. In view of that, I think he's being a bit disinguenuous now.
That being said, I didn't call for Nos' banning and did my best to ignore him until he took out after Diva's daughter and baby appropos of nothing. I certainly don't miss him. 1294. Indiana Jones - 9/28/2000 3:33:05 PM I don't know of any Mote folks who actively seek to harm the forum. Why should we tolerate someone who is openly trying to do so?
This is indeed the entire point. Forget all the stuff about free speech and fairness. In fact, it doesn't even matter whether the person is actively trying to harm the forum. If a motier tries to force the community in a direction that the vast majority of the polis doesn't like--particularly those members who work the hardest to build the Mote and have a stake in it--then of course the community has the most fundamental right of all (self-defense) to expel that person.
The expeled poster doesn't lose anything but the ability to associate with others who don't want to associate with him. Dissenting motiers are of course still able to communicate via email with the banished--or, let the dissatisfied lot do the work necessary to create their own forum and govern it as they see fit. Cyberspace has plenty of room for homesteading. Moreover, should the community continually err by "skimming its cream," then it will eventually receive its own just reward: conversation exactly as its participants deserve.
To govern otherwise is to ensure that any scofflaw can run roughshod over such a community of would-be pacifists and Quakers. Proto-Nazis have the right to make their revisionist speeches...but not in Jewish living rooms.
In short, I think it was an excellent move. 1295. Indiana Jones - 9/28/2000 3:33:21 PM Just to clarify: I don't think dissent should become grounds for banishment, but when the dissenter asserts himself to the degree that he begins to turn the Mote into what he desires rather than what most of its participants and community builders desire, then that is another matter.
Also, Nostradamus had no effect whatsoever on my decision to curtail my online activities both here and elsewhere. I'm just too busy for the time being (which is one reason why I'm posting this at 2 a.m.) 1296. PelleNilsson - 9/28/2000 6:11:39 PM I wish it to be on record that I completely supported, and still support, wabbit's decision in the Nostradamus case. 1297. PsychProf - 9/28/2000 8:41:03 PM I guess I am alone on this one, but I honestly felt that Nos was going to contribute new vitality to our cyberhome. I am very uncomfortable with all this backslapping. 1298. KuligintheHooligan - 9/28/2000 9:10:40 PM bubbaette, I don't really recall why Nos was banned the first time, but it certainly had nothing to do with me. That you even imply so is unfair and entirely misleading by you.
As for his posts concerning Diva, all I could find was some odd reference about a "Mr. Hankey" or some such thing. I suppose the comment was akin to saying something like, "I hope your baby doesn't look like the mailman." That is innocuous at best, unless of course you are saying it to a super-sensitive person or in the presence of super-sensitive people. Now then, given Diva's recounting and her non-response, she doesn't appear super-sensitive, but given the response of others here with what is basically a harmless statement, they must be super-sensitive.
However, again, CalGal pointed out various other matters that I was unaware of.
If Nos was banned for what he said to Diva, it is just plainly silly, because far, far worse has been said here in the Mote by people that are considered some of its best posters.
But practically speaking, it is a done deal nonetheless. 1299. KuligintheHooligan - 9/28/2000 9:14:06 PM "Kuligan is well aware of that past action for which Nos was initially banned because, as I recall, he was part of it and acting as Nos' advisor. In view of that, I think he's being a bit disinguenuous now."
bubbaette, you do say "as I recall," which is the out you need on this one. Because you recall incorrectly.
Or maybe I do. I don't honestly remember why he was banned the first time, but I can't imagine I had anything to do with it. In fact, had I, I suppose I would remember it well!
And I also never acted as "his advisor," which just shows that you really don't know what you are talking about on this one bubbaette. However, if you would please provide substantiation for your claim above (no need for exact posts, just the general gist of what you mean), I would be more than happy to address the matter. Otherwise, please apologize for incrimmating me in something that I had no part in. Thank you. 1300. KuligintheHooligan - 9/28/2000 9:21:50 PM I should also point out that if what CalGal said was true, that all we had was a poster that was going from thread to thread "shitting" on the place and not providing any substantive content, then we should ban such a person. I mean, really, why put up with such nonsense?
However, I didn't think that was what Nos was doing. Was he questioning some of the Motie "norms"? Sure he was. Was he attacking some of the Moties that others wouldn't dare attack? Definitely. And I thought it was limited to just that. And thus my comments about lynch mobs and the mob mentality here and a certain level of hypocrisy concerning the matter (and not by all people by any means, but definitely by some).
Personally, I think if you come here and do not expect to be attacked at least occasionally, or find it entirely offensive to ever be attacked, then you should leave. Because such forums as these are not the place for such people.
However, I do agree in principle that a person that contributes nothing positive and only "shits" on the place shouldn't be tolerated. 1301. rubberducky - 9/28/2000 9:53:07 PM Re: Message # 1297, PsychProf.
I guess I am alone on this one...
no ... i wasn't really for banning either. i liked his non-personal topical posts and tried to get him to post more of those. he chose to be as ass. oh well.
anyway, while i certainly don't miss him and think theMote will get along fine without him, i wasn't for the banning, but then, i am 99% never for them to begin with. that being said, i have no problem with Cal's Message # 1288 and find myself agreeing with it despite my objections. 1302. quivver - 9/28/2000 10:00:38 PM Nos will most likely be back in like a week. I'm refraining from comment about his banning, since I don't feel a pressing need to add to the list of comments. But no-one should look surprised if some smart alecky, slightly over-the-top-with-egomania kid comes barrelling back in real soon now. Of course, I'm probably stating the blindingly obvious there, but it may only be supposition. Time for bed.
aem. 1303. bubbaette - 9/28/2000 10:16:24 PM Kuligan
To go in detail into Nos' first banning would almost be to repeat the offense that justified his banning. Suffice it to say that there are enough of us who remember Nos's past behaviour that lead to his banning and your part in it so that your professed bewilderment now rings false.
As I said before, Nox's behaviour in his first banning far outstripped anything that he accused Indiana Jones of doing. So egregious were those actions that I don't see why his ID was re-instated in the first place. Nox in attacking IJ repeated that pattern by dragged a dispute from another venue into the Mote and refusing to let it go when advised that it was inappropriate. He followed his past pattern of attempting to trash people in the Mote over disputes that happened outside the Mote. I think that no one was buying this time because of his past track record.
If, by questioning Mote norms, you mean attacking non-combattants and lashing out at Diva in the most hurtful way he could come up with for no reason at all, then I question the value of that type of "participation". Overall, his behavior over the past week, coupled with the fact that he'd been previously banned for particularly egregious behavior justifies reinstating the ban. 1304. bubbaette - 9/28/2000 10:22:11 PM Ducky
I'm not a fan of banning either. I'd much prefer to ignore the fool til he goes away. And though I didn't call for Nox's banning in the first instance, I think it was justified and question the reason (if there was one) for reinstating him. 1305. rubberducky - 9/28/2000 11:07:37 PM well, i've always been one for 2nd chances. i don't really think past behavior for which penance was served (the day banning) should be taken into account wrt current behavior.
but, was it "justified"? well, i dunno. most anything can be justified in the proper context. that being said, this is probably reached the point of diminishing returns in terms of discussing it. 1306. CalGal - 9/29/2000 1:16:52 AM A few clarifications:
Nos was never banned. When he showed up as God, he committed a rather horrific privacy violation. He wasn't banned for that, either. (although many thought he should be.) He then continued to try and violate privacy, and I believe that he was then banned (as God). At that point someone logged in with a number of ids and began spamming the place. It was very ugly; tons and tons of posts. We actually shut the place down from new logins for a bit, it was so bad. God/Nos/JF denied that this was him, and we had no real proof--but it was the same night, and I've always believed it was him.
That same night, Nostradamus showed up, and started posting in the Spiritual Issues thread. I would say most of us knew within a week that it was the same guy--same interests. But no one acknowledged it, and he was a generally pleasant part of the community for a few months and hosted the Religion thread--until he acknowledged that he was God. He was never banned as Nos; the incident with thread hosting caused his suspension and removal of as thread host, I believe.
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