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216. joezan - 9/19/1999 12:59:16 PM
HaHa!
Anyway...
As for the policy discussion...
This place will never get anywhere - never - until we agree to abandon our old Fray agendas and vendettas.
Inevitably, new ones will develop here, with the same old people, over the same old things. But the newbies...you know - the people we're trying to attract to this forum? - will at least have the benefit of seeing these wars develop and, perhaps, even be entertained by them. As it is, they are coming into what they know (or will soon find out) is a brand new forum, where people are already screaming at each other. IOW, they don't know our history.
So, make like you have house-guests over - save the yelling and screaming (and the nastier side-swiping) for the sub-threads, at least until we're established. God knows, I've been congratulating myself daily for holding my tongue on what's been going on wrt banning, cyphers, inappropriate names, etc.
And if I can do it, anyone can. 217. alistairconnor - 9/19/1999 1:08:58 PM Well, rather than respond to Cal's post 210, I think I'll explain why I won't be responding to it.
Not that I expect that third parties would interested in my relations with another poster, or that I actually care much myself about third parties' judgements on this, but because I think it might be illuminating with respect to the policy discussion insofar as it relates to meltdowns.
I have had an unformulated rule which stood me in good stead for nearly three years of participation in that other site, and which has kept me out of conflict with other posters ever since my original run-in with PseudoErasmus.
I've actually just laid it out clearly for myself, after posting #209 and regretting it :
When an exchange between me and another poster clearly contains elements of personal emnity, from either end, and for any reason, then I will address that poster on that issue in no more than one post. Preferably less.
Sorry I felt obliged to burden you all with that. 218. alistairconnor - 9/19/1999 1:20:10 PM Well gee, folks, any comments about the Private Thread feature? Though it's not actually a policy thing (in my opinion), just another tool. I don't see myself as fixing policy here in any way, my ambition is that we have enough tools so that we need as little policy as possible. That's my trade, enabling solutions. (TM and URL)
My idea is that this style of thread serves two purposes, that I see as being completely distinct, but others may see as overlapping, or even, heavens, the same thing : Civilised policy discussions like the current one, and meltdowns.
I'm thinking of a refinement. Currently there is a single participant list, and once your name is on it, you can't get it off. People who might register without having a clear idea of the nature of the thread might subsequently be upset about their name being associated with it.
Not so much for this current thread, more for the meltdown situation.
So how about a button to unsubscribe, and a second list, of unsubscribers? This would be a one-way process, i.e. you can't re-subscribe once you're out.
This would give the moderator a useful indicator of how long such a thread should run, if the first list started shrinking and the second started growing. 219. phillipdavid - 9/19/1999 1:26:14 PM Just read this thread; Ace has made a lot of sense and a very good case. I support his pov wrt banning of those who reveal personal information about other participants (I would also add ex participants).
Cal's point about not letting the victims determine the consequences was a good point.
I also support the idea Jay (or Adam, sorry I forget which) made about a personal profile section for posters. 220. phillipdavid - 9/19/1999 1:29:19 PM alsitair,
I support the ability to unsuscribe. 221. Angel-Five - 9/19/1999 1:51:08 PM Alistair: AS I said before, to some folk, the important thing about their argument is that it be extremely visible. Nevertheless, I like this.
I also really, really like the idea of having names on the side. Can we do that all the time in all threads -- except like a Yahoo list of people who are logged in? 222. Angel-Five - 9/19/1999 1:54:03 PM Of course, I like it primarily because we can see who the 24 hour losers are -- :> -- but it's also nice to be able to see who is on, in terms of asking someone for clarification of their post, etc., and having some expectation of lag time for an answer. IT would make for a more developed community. 223. joezan - 9/19/1999 2:00:24 PM
Jeez.
...you'd figure a guy with a name like "ritalin" would be posting his fingers off.
But, hey...maybe he's just real focused and intent on the discussion...
224. alistairconnor - 9/19/1999 2:06:49 PM There is another issue that I need to address. I am not a moderator. I am constitutionally unsuited to being one, for a start: I'm not a moderate.
By construction, I have the technical means to do moderation stuff, and I had previously made clear that I would only do so in an emergency. The other day, a situation arose that I considered to be an emergency. During this shakedown period, I consider that what I did (which was to take that thread off display, not to delete it) was more of a technical intervention than a moderation exercise (as moderation, it was a failure: I don't know of anyone who was happy with what I did).
In fact, Resonance could have done what I did, and was the appropriate person to do it, and was aware and concerned about the damage that the thread was doing to the site, but didn't feel empowered to do it. He felt that as judge and participant, he might have been criticized for doing so.
So all things considered, and bearing in mind that Wabbit may or may not have had electricity at that time, I don't regret pulling the thread. That was my only intervention.
I actually think that I won't ever do it again. Mostly because we have this marvellous new private thread thing. If that had existed at the time, I am quite certain that either Resonance or Wabbit would have made the thread private long before I pulled it.
(ends) 225. pellenilsson - 9/19/1999 2:47:05 PM Just to set the record straight regarding my #177 and Kuligin's #182. My post was made before alistair implemented the private thread feature. 226. Angel-Five - 9/19/1999 2:49:57 PM Too late. You have to spend the night in the Box, now.
Be thankful the would-be New Regime didn't catch you. They'd have you rowing a galley up the Nile. 227. ChristinO - 9/19/1999 3:16:11 PM AC,
Great idea, very good feature. 228. Angel-Five - 9/19/1999 4:45:20 PM I don't know. I honestly don't see what the point is about personal info, to be honest (and I've had my personal info misused in a fairly creepy way). I know that it will never be implemented here, and it's no good unless everyone does it, but I like the notion of going real names. The Well has done it for years and in my time there I do not remember hearing about a single abuse -- AND I can remember a lot less nastiness. The major cause is the lack of anonymity. Anonymity in this place, and in the Fray as well (where I argued against it as well) allows for one really damaging kind of behavior. It allows people to act in a manner that would get them tarred and feathered in real life, and allows them to post things that would earn them a life-threatening beating in any forum where they were in close physical proximity to the people who had to listen to them. Yet, in an anonymous forum, there is little to tie someone to their IRL identity and thus they can go about engaging in all sorts of OL behavior without any fear of repercussion. (No, I'm not advocating the threat of violence as a possible socializing agent -- just illustrating a point.) The fact of the matter is that there are many people in the Mote who would act entirely different were they to run any risk of damaging their reputation, and they do and say many things that they wouldn't dream of saying if someone could look at them and say -- 'You! Joe Blow! I can't believe you're saying that!' This is often innocent or at least harmless -- think of a given day in the old Social thread, complete with flirtation and steam-letting. And there are indeed some number of things allowed by anonymity that if not beneficial are at least neutral. 229. Angel-Five - 9/19/1999 4:45:42 PM Multiples (which can be really damaging) can also be fun and useful. Personae are a good actor's tool. Some shy types find that the anonymous nature of the Fray/Mote allowed them to say things they'd have otherwise felt too constrained to say. And, of course, some people use anonymity to construct a fantasy-based identity, and while these people can be very creepy to interact with, I don't see any problem with them in a community as long as they are a positive asset otherwise. But if you look at the very real problems with the Mote and with the Fray before it, the problems we all think of and most of us bitched about when the Fray was in its long decline, they almost all come down to flagrant misuse of anonymity. The anonymity also encourages people to take other Motiers as, well, less than human. Even more so than normal when the other 'humans' you see on your monitor are, to you, no more than 0s and 1s as far as you can physically tell. You will not only be much more likely to misuse other people in an anonymous situation but be more likely to be misused. It's common psychology. And while I'd miss a lot of the loose banter that goes on (some people would probably be too self-conscious to flirt and gambol about if it were their real name on everyone else's screen) I certainly wouldn't miss a lot of the abusive and manipulative crap that people serve up knowing that they'll never be affected by it. I personally don't think that you ought to say something if you don't have the guts to put your name next to it, and if you're terribly worried about people learning your ID I'd have to ask what it is that you do which would cause so many people to want to screw with you. And if you will insist that this would kill the forum -- remember, the Well's been around for a LONG time. 230. Spudboy - 9/19/1999 10:56:05 PM Well, as the victim of a rather egregious case of blown anonymity -- my name didn’t merely appear in an obscure post as an encrypted message, but was plastered in the “hot” Politics thread in capital letters (in the Fray, which meant it was exposed to a rather broader segment of the public) -- let me come to the defense of keeping people anonymous if they wish to do so.
I liked having the cover of anonymity for precisely the reasons AngelFive elucidates: It allowed me to behave differently than I would as a professional. But that’s because I make my living as a writer. My real name is attached to my professional work. My reputation is built on that. I would never attempt to publish some of the stuff I can do in a place like The Mote. That was precisely the pleasure of it for me; it let me shelve my professional persona and just be myself, or at least to let loose some of the stuff that gets pent up because I have to spend so much of my day being objective. It let me be more partisan, more pugnacious, than I certainly would ever conduct myself professionally.
What dismayed me about having my name and work splattered, rather maliciously, about the Fray is that it meant a sizeable enough segment of the public would be able to attach my Spudboy persona with my professional one. It didn’t stop for awhile, and by the time it had, the damage was largely irreparable. Something had to give. (cont'd) 231. Spudboy - 9/19/1999 10:57:55 PM When I finally outed myself in the Fray, it was out of frustration with the fact that my anonymity wasn’t secure there. Thus I announced at the time that I’d be sticking to more sedate, factual or journalistic exchanges (a vow that has occasionally been difficult to live up to, I’ll admit ... my subsequent hunting debate with Elliot springs to mind, as does my recent regrettable exchange with Ace ... though mostly I’ve managed to stick to it ...). And there’s been little doubt that my lack of freedom has directly affected my desire to post, either in the Fray afterward (outside, of course, of the thread I hosted) or here.
Now, maybe the rest of The More should be forced to be more in the line of the standards I’d be required to meet as a professional. It certainly would make the debate more straightforward and civil. But it would be a hell of a lot less fun. I think anonymity gives participants a great cushion that lets them be fiery. I do think it gets over the line, and I wouldn’t mind seeing some more active moderation in that regard. (Yes, Ace, I agree; you would actually be a magnificent debater if you could shed just some of the nastiness. The unimaginative stuff in particular.) But overall, I think losing anonymity would be to the forum’s great detriment.
I will admit that I was somewhat astonished that my predicament, when my name and work was getting splattered about the Fray, didn’t spur any more outrage than my own, which I mostly muted outside of those moments when the outing was reoccurring. There were, sad to say, no extended opuses or thousand-post threads extolling the absolute need to shield participants from having their real-life identities exposed. (cont'd) 232. Spudboy - 9/19/1999 10:59:44 PM No one called for the person who published my name in capital letters (and who subsequently kept bringing up my IRL work, further shredding my anonymity) in the Fray to be banned. All of which, in my mind, casts some doubt on the motives for all this extended discussion of Seguine’s behavior and the appropriate punishment.
Seguine shouldn’t have published the cipher. I think she owes CalGal an apology (just as I felt Thomas owed me one at the time ... which I never received), though the matter has been pushed so far now that I’d be surprised if it were forthcoming. And, just as I asked for Thomas to receive a warning, I think Seguine should also. But banning? Give me a break! Seguine has a long and worthy record of being a civil contributor to the debate in this online community, and I don’t think a single intemperate mistake should obliterate that. Nor should it obliterate the fact that she happens to be the editor/publisher of the magazine that’s kind enough to host us (I admit I have wondered if she won’t simply tire of the abuse she’s endured over this and simply say fuck it and pull the plug on our little playpen, though I know she is a bigger person than that). Secondarily, it wasn’t the kind of exposure that would reveal CalGal’s identity to a large segment of the public (I don’t know very many people who know how to solve ciphers, frankly, but maybe I’m missing something), and I really don’t think she did it maliciously. It seemed to me that it occurred within the context of a lively debate involving hypotheticals, and she crossed a line that’s easy to transgress. (cont'd) 233. Spudboy - 9/19/1999 11:01:24 PM Now, I wouldn’t wish what happened to Jenerator on anyone, even though I have no great affection for her. God/Cat in the Hat was obviously being malicious, and I can’t imagine anything more humiliating than that kind of exposure. His behavior was so egregious that I completely concur with the way that Wabbit handled it. But I like letting the moderators have the leeway to use their own judgment on who gets banned if such a drastic step needs to be taken. I think anyone taking a balanced view of Seguine will admit that she in no way deserves to be banned -- unless, of course, she repeats the behavior or has a subsequent egregious transgression. A warning should suffice.
This may make the system more subjective than some here would like, but I don’t think you’re going to be able to escape that. Ultimately, someone’s going to have make subjective judgments about violations and levels of egregiousness. And an automatic ban, I think, opens us up to precisely the biggest problem that I saw develop in the Fray: Someone gets a bug up his ass about another Fraygrant, concocts a violation on flimsy pretenses, and then stamps about and jumps and shouts and threatens to turn blue in the face until something’s done about it ... and succeeds in getting that other Fraygrant banned. That scenario, frankly, was the biggest turn-off in all my time in the Fray -- even more than getting my name used there. And now we’re seeing it play out again. The reason I raised the Thomas situation again the other day was simple: I don’t believe that the two chief complainants here are pursuing this out of their fervent belief that people’s anonymity should be protected (else they’d have come to my defense, rather than the perpetrator’s, when it happened in more egregious circumstances). The entire tone and mode of behavior has indicated an underlying vindictiveness toward Seguine. If they succeed in getting her banned, you can kiss off the participation of people like me. (cont'd) 234. Spudboy - 9/19/1999 11:02:56 PM I have been, as I noted previously, lurking for awhile now, mulling over whether or not to join in. My time constraints are severe right now, but I’m looking at some open time beginning in November, and I might be persuaded to put some energy into this place for awhile. I’m watching this scenario play out carefully, because it’s going to determine my decision.
I really only want to participate if we can be a genuine community, which requires openness and a desire to bring in new blood. At a time when The Mote should be building its community, and trying to bring fresh people in, trying to be at least somewhat welcoming in nature, I find that the bulk of the energy being expended here is aimed at driving people out. The most prominent discussion here has been about tearing the place apart. It’s really too bad. This forum had such promise.
I’ll check back in November and see if it’s gotten any better. If it’s still here. 235. AdamSelene - 9/19/1999 11:26:47 PM Spudboy,
I agree with virtually all of your sentiments - I think the anonymity is valuable in letting us express alternate opinions and other playful aspects of ourselves. I'm not nearly so radical in real life (believe it or not) but in this forum it's save to be extreme and see how far you can take someting. It would be a lot less fun without it. My only slight disagreement is your expectation that the Mote will turn into something that you can come back to... It might not do that unless people like you are willing to invest a little time now during the shaping period. Not that I'm helping all that much myself, but it's true nonetheless.
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