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27479. PincherMartin - 7/1/2013 5:13:06 AM Arky,
"PM is a bore, plain and simple. He lacked a valid point in his "gender debate" so he went with provocatively calling children who have gender identification issues "mistakes."
If a major physical or mental characteristic in a person is so aberrant that it obviously reduces fitness, what's wrong with calling it a "biological mistake"?
Is it provocative to do so? Sure. But is it wrong? No.
And you can't claim I'm using this language as a personal insult because I obviously don't know enough about any of your personal lives to make it personal.
And here is my main valid point in that discussion, Arky: Identity is a meaningless concept for both race and gender outside of some biological framework. If I want to start calling myself a black gay woman tomorrow, I can do so. And in some sad circles, my word on that would be considered good. But it doesn't make it true.
Nor do human oddities - people who genuinely have some strange and rare mix of characteristics from both genders - make it any less true.
"That some children should be written off as "mistakes"?"
I didn't say write them off. In fact, I explicitly said that you're a good parent if you don't write them off. But that's only if you don't have a choice.
Sarah Palin is being a great parent by loving her child with Down's Syndrome. But if we could remove that condition from future children tomorrow, she'd be an equally great parent by wanting to remove it from her fetus.
Their condition is still a mistake, and it's wrong to fetishize it as some sort of valuable identity that needs to be protected and nurtured. So if in the future you have the ability to make a choice about that condition in future children, you should do the right thing by removing it. We don't need to perpetuate transgenders like they're a rare species. 27480. bhelpuri - 7/1/2013 6:33:11 AM Does anyone really give a shit about this fake "gender debate"? Is anyone quite as invested as PMS? Why, PMS?
This is actual a useful moment in one way. We see that our old forum - built robust in the relatively early days of the web - has in fact transformed to a kind of club for the old friends who connected intensely here and The Fray so very many years ago. Vicious argumentation is misplaced here now. Boorish baboons now look even more ridiculous than in the first place.
And posters who have failed to grow up stand out. Seriously, PMS, we all have pity (and could perhaps generate understanding) for you. But who cares, you were an asshole all along. Now fuck off again for as long as possible... 27481. bhelpuri - 7/1/2013 6:39:05 AM Now I feel like writing 2000+ words on the Internet pre-snooping, pre-NSA diabolicalness, pre-scumbags like PMS.
But who will pay?! Dollar a word is my rate! 27482. PincherMartin - 7/1/2013 6:45:33 AM Why is it a fake debate, bhel? Am I to believe you don't care how people are identified in society?
Well, I don't believe you. I think you care greatly. You may not care about certain kinds of people, but you still care about others.
But even if it's true that you care not at all for how people are identified, and the way we understand their characteristics, society obviously cares. On both the left and the right.
So this is what we people who actually like debating call a real debate. No credentials need be presented. No moral judgments need be displayed. You just need a good old fashioned argument. 27483. PincherMartin - 7/1/2013 6:54:07 AM When I earlier said bhel didn't know a debate from a hole in the ground, this was exactly what I meant.
He casually dismisses an entire realm of centuries-old inquiry into sex, gender and identity, which has only heated up to an extreme degree in the last few decades, as a "fake debate". Why? Because he doesn't even know how to approach the discussion unless he can moralize about it. He has a fine aesthetic sensibility, but is missing entirely an analytical side to his brain. 27484. PincherMartin - 7/1/2013 6:56:39 AM You unlucky saps have me until tomorrow (Monday, US time - just in case Alistair is using that date for our bet deadline) and then I will return to the darkness from whence I crept. 27485. bhelpuri - 7/1/2013 6:56:43 AM Yawn. Fuck off. 27486. PincherMartin - 7/1/2013 6:59:09 AM "Yawn. Fuck off."
This must be that "grownup" side of the forum that bhel was earlier extolling. 27487. bhelpuri - 7/1/2013 7:08:19 AM 27466. iiibbb - 7/1/2013 2:44:49 AM
they say strange things happen to people who have been to the end of the Internet... I thought I'd never see one
Bingo! We are experiencing the last of the trolls. 27488. judithathome - 7/1/2013 7:20:16 AM Probably not. 27489. PincherMartin - 7/1/2013 7:23:42 AM You guys flatter yourselves if you think anyone would bother to come here to troll you. That's like a seventy-five-year-old woman thinking that young, cute bag boy at the grocery store is checking her out every time she buys groceries. 27490. bhelpuri - 7/1/2013 7:26:49 AM Boring. So very boring, troll. Now fuck off back to your cave! 27491. PincherMartin - 7/1/2013 7:29:57 AM Tomorrow, my fine and civil and grownup Hindu, you'll get your wish.
But not before. 27492. PincherMartin - 7/1/2013 7:33:10 AM And then you guys can go back to your little monthly chitchats.
Arky: "Put some gewgaws on my new hammock !"
Judith: Envious !"
Bhel: "I'm so happy to be part of a grownup forum."
Not much troll bait there. 27493. arkymalarky - 7/1/2013 7:38:47 AM The use of the word mistake is idiotic on its face. There are a host of characteristics people are born with that "reduce fitness," whatever the hell that means. Your inability to grasp what constitutes an option wrt parenting a child and what doesn't leads me to wonder whether you have any concept of child development at all. Post something your blinkered perception didn't just intuit based on bupkus and we'll debate it. 27494. arkymalarky - 7/1/2013 7:42:40 AM PM, I hate that your circuit is so narrow and undeveloped after all these years. Reading your posts is like entering a time warp. But that's really yourproblem, not ours. 27495. arkymalarky - 7/1/2013 7:49:49 AM "Their condition is still a mistake, and it's wrong to fetishize it as some sort of valuable identity that needs to be protected and nurtured. So if in the future you have the ability to make a choice about that condition in future children, you should do the right thing by removing it. We don't need to perpetuate transgenders like they're a rare species."
Seriously, this is beyond stupid. What would be the reason for eliminating them any more than removing dyslexics or whatever other types make you squirm? If you want to be shocking and provocative, at least don't be so lazy about it that you don't even bother to construct a decent support for your pile of doo doo. On 27496. arkymalarky - 7/1/2013 7:51:49 AM I do love the ridiculous false premises. People are just fetishizing all over the place when it comes to trans genders. Hahaha! 27497. arkymalarky - 7/1/2013 7:54:14 AM And you do realize Downs Syndrome children are identified before birth, right? 27498. arkymalarky - 7/1/2013 8:02:26 AM Wow. I guess he turned into a pumpkin.
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