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28159. jexster - 4/17/2006 6:29:44 PM "Jesus died for your sins two thousand years before you committed any" is one of the strangest religious concepts I've come across.
First you have to believe in God (beyond time and space) and then you have to believe that Jesus is True God and True Man. Amd you also have to believe in Original Sin - that sin is a human existential.
The Muslims have a similiar concept - the pre-existing Quran. Jesus the pre-existing Logos. 28160. Adam Selene - 4/17/2006 6:36:32 PM Umm... Pelle, what exactly does a Mote Host do? I'm hardly an expert on religion or philosophy... 28161. jexster - 4/17/2006 7:00:22 PM You keep Pelle in line
Sak...the Second Reading, Good Friday propers, says it all quite poetically I think..one of my favorites, esp. the last few verses.
Hebrews 10.1-25
[Christ’s Sacrifice Once for All]
Since the law has only a shadow of the good things to come and not the true form of these realities, it can never, by the same sacrifices that are continually offered year after year, make perfect those who approach. Otherwise, would they not have ceased being offered, since the worshippers, cleansed once for all, would no longer have any consciousness of sin? But in these sacrifices there is a reminder of sin year after year. For it is impossible for the blood of bulls and goats to take away sins.
Consequently, when Christ came into the world, he said,
‘Sacrifices and offerings you have not desired,
but a body you have prepared for me;
in burnt-offerings and sin-offerings
you have taken no pleasure.
Then I said, “See, God, I have come to do your will, O God”
(in the scroll of the book it is written of me).’
When he said above, ‘You have neither desired nor taken pleasure in sacrifices and offerings and burnt-offerings and sin-offerings’ (these are offered according to the law), then he added, ‘See, I have come to do your will.’ He abolishes the first in order to establish the second. And it is by God’s will that we have been sanctified through the offering of the body of Jesus Christ once for all.
And every priest stands day after day at his service, offering again and again the same sacrifices that can never take away sins. But when Christ had offered for all time a single sacrifice for sins, ‘he sat down at the right hand of God’, and since then has been waiting ‘until his enemies would be made a footstool for his feet.’ For by a single offering he has perfected for all time those who are sanctified. And the Holy Spirit also testifies to us, for after saying,
‘This is the covenant that I will make with them
after those days, says the Lord:
I will put my laws in their hearts,
and I will write them on their minds’,
he also adds,
‘I will remember their sins and their lawless deeds no more.’
Where there is forgiveness of these, there is no longer any offering for sin.
Therefore, my friends, since we have confidence to enter the sanctuary by the blood of Jesus, by the new and living way that he opened for us through the curtain (that is, through his flesh), and since we have a great priest over the house of God, let us approach with a true heart in full assurance of faith, with our hearts sprinkled clean from an evil conscience and our bodies washed with pure water. Let us hold fast to the confession of our hope without wavering, for he who has promised is faithful. And let us consider how to provoke one another to love and good deeds, not neglecting to meet together, as is the habit of some, but encouraging one another, and all the more as you see the Day approaching.
Joy to thee O Queen of Heavan!
28162. jexster - 4/17/2006 7:04:39 PM REGINA CAELI
Joy to thee, O Queen of Heaven: alleluia
He whom thou was meet to bear: alleluia
As he promised hath arisen: alleluia
Pour for us to God thy prayer: alleluia
Rejoice and be glad, O Virgin Mary, alleluia
For the Lord is risen indeed, alleluia
O God, who by the resurrection of your Son our Lord Jesus Christ brought joy to the whole world; grant that through the intercession of his Mother the Virgin Mary we may obtain the joys of life everlasting. Through Jesus Christ our Lord. AMEN.
28163. PelleNilsson - 4/17/2006 7:40:08 PM First you have to believe in God (beyond time and space) and then you have to believe that Jesus is True God and True Man. Amd you also have to believe in Original Sin - that sin is a human existential.
Yes, first you have to believe, then everything will fall into place. And belief has nothing to do with rationality. Its very essence is to be irrational.
28164. PelleNilsson - 4/17/2006 7:52:53 PM Adam,
To be a Mote Host is very simple and easy. You will get certain powers such as moving posts to another thread (in case they are completely off-subject) or deleting them altogether (if they are unseemly). You may use these powers as you seem fit. You can take an aggressive stand, as some people think I do, or you can adopt a laid-back anything-goes policy. It is entirely up to you.
What is important is that you keep an eye on the thread and occasionally introduce some fresh subject of discussion. Expertise is not required. Interest in the matter at hand will do very nicely. 28165. sakonige - 4/17/2006 7:56:27 PM Jexter, thanks for taking time to respond.
This seems to be a circular argument, though. The text simply says the sacrifice works because the text says the sacrifice works.
It says it is impossible for the blood of bulls and goats to take away sins, but it doesn't say how it is possible for anybody elses blood to take away sins, particularly sins that have not yet been committed.
(I'm trying to understand why anyone would find this a compelling argument, since so many people apparently do.) 28166. sakonige - 4/17/2006 7:59:16 PM Adam Selene, I trust my instincts and try to cultivate them as much as possible. I guess that's my religion. I believe the natural processes that created me are right. 28167. transient1a - 4/17/2006 8:39:59 PM Science and Religion: Two Very Different -- but not so different views of science
http://www.cbc.ca/thecurrent/2006/200604/20060414.html
On this most holy of days for Christians, we thought we'd introduce you to a man who's put a lot of thought into where this "belief impulse" comes from and why humans are capable of believing in everything from angels to aliens.
Lewis Wolpert is an evolutionary biologist and Professor Emeritus of Biology as Applied to Medicine at University College, in London. He is the author of Six Impossible Things Before Breakfast: The Evolutionary Origins of Belief. And he joined us from our London Studio. Audio of this interview:
http://www.cbc.ca/thecurrent/media/200604/20060414thecurrent_sec1.ram
http://radio.cbc.ca/programs/quirks/archives/05-06/apr15.html
Brother Guy Consolmagno, Jesuit and Astronomer
Science and religion are often seen in conflict, but that's something Brother Guy Consolmagno would like to put behind us. He's certainly put it behind him. Brother Guy is the curator of Meteorites of the Vatican Observatory, and an accomplished planetary scientist, and he sees no tension at all between his science and his religion. He also thinks many scientists with religious beliefs feel the same way. The conflict, he suspects, is a result of people who know too little about both science and religion. Audio of interview:
http://radio.cbc.ca/programs/quirks/media/2005-2006/mp3/qq-2006-04-15e.mp3
28168. transient1a - 4/17/2006 8:48:13 PM Guess I should put the links in properly:
CBC text
Interview
CBC text
Interview
28169. alistairConnor - 4/17/2006 10:12:45 PM I had a religious experience today.
Riding my bike through the woods, I came across a small chapel. It was open, candles burning and everything. I was in luck, it's only open one day a year : easter monday. Dedicated to Sainte Procule. This well-born young lady declined to marry the assigned gentleman, and fled from Rodez all the way to Gannat, at the other extremity of the Massif Central - must be 500 km, and very rugged terrain. There, she lived the life of a hermit, at the site of the chapel. This is circa 12th century. Anyway, her promised husband, not to be denied, pursued her and eventually tracked her down. -- Will you marry me or would you rather die? -- Don't put words in my mouth. So he lopped her head off. She calmly picked it up and walked a couple of miles into town, expiring on the site of the present day Institut de Sainte Procule.
What has this got to do with religion? Excellent question.
The answer, I think, is related to the proverb about every problem looking like a nail if your only tool is a hammer. If you only have religion as a framework for examining the world, then any remarkable event must necessarily have religious significance.
I prefer to think of Procule as a feminist martyr. Someone should write a thesis about her.
28170. jexster - 4/17/2006 10:42:30 PM Christians, to the Paschal victim!
[Victime Pascale]
But don't follow Procule..she's been de-saintified..
Otoh...God does work in mysterious ways
Elle était la fille unique d'une famille de la noblesse du Rouergue. Ses parents profondément chrétiens n'en avaient pas moins des espérances mondaines et, sûrs de l'obéissance de leur fille, ils lui cherchèrent un époux digne du rang, de la fortune et de la beauté de la future épouse. Procule refusa tout net de se plier. Des semaines passèrent et nul n'en parlait plus. Mais les parents avaient conçu un stratagème. Ils fixèrent l'époque des noces et un beau jour sainte Procule vit arriver, Géraud, son "fiancé" en brillante escorte. Les invités étaient également de la fête. Procule se déguisa en pauvresse, prit la fuite et disparut. Tout un chacun attendit vainement et comprit la chose à la vue des appartements vides. Après bien des recherches, Géraud la retrouva et, dans sa colère, la décapita. L'histoire est belle, même si elle est améliorée dans les récits touchants dans lesquels le Rouergue, l'Auvergne et le Bourbonnais ont rivalisé d'imagination
28171. arkymalarky - 4/17/2006 11:17:52 PM Wow--Hey Transient. Long time no see. 28172. Adam Selene - 4/18/2006 1:22:54 AM Pelle,
I'll give it a go on a trial basis, if that's acceptable.
So turn me on! 28173. alistairconnor - 4/18/2006 8:44:32 AM You pissing on my parade Jex? Procule been relegated to the Second Division or something?
Don't tell the locals, there'll be a riot. 28174. PelleNilsson - 4/18/2006 9:18:49 AM OK, Adam, you're on. To access the hosting tools go here and log in with your usual userID and password. There are hosting guidelines but I don't have them on my box. I have asked the other moderators to send them to you at your comcast address. 28175. Adam Selene - 4/18/2006 6:10:53 PM Ok, I guess it's official - I'm the new mod for this thread.
Now, how an atheist ended up as mod on a religion and philosophy thread I'll never know....
The only thing I ask is that everyone avoid attacking or ridiculing any particular individual here for their beliefs. It's bad enough to make fun of someone's political persuasion, but more wars have been started over religion. The idea is to educate, learn, and celebrate our "meta-life," not to convert anyone or shame anyone.
That being said... I doubt that anyone will ever know I was here except as a participant. 28176. arkymalarky - 4/18/2006 6:19:00 PM We appreciate you doing this, Adam. This place is really made functional by people who are willing to help with thread hosting, even if they are nearly invisible. 28177. uzmakk - 4/18/2006 7:11:40 PM Selene,
Why shouldn't you be host; meta-life is a metaphysicophilosophicoohsoreligiousoh idea. 28178. uzmakk - 4/18/2006 7:13:06 PM Atheist, my ass.
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