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28395. iiibbb - 7/26/2006 3:27:56 PM From the first link on google when you type 'women' 'christiantiy'
Which in no means excuses what some Moslems do to their women... but we should recognize that you don't have to look far to find Christians who would pretty much do the same.
- Reformation Fellowship of the East Valley, Mesa, AZ (circa 1995)
"In the beginning God made man male and female. He made Adam first, and then made Eve from Adam's rib. This order of creation subordinates wives to their husbands in marriage, and women to men in the church. As an act of submission to their Creator women are commanded to submit to their husbands and to male leadership in the church. Women are not allowed to teach or have authority over men in any formal capacity in the church." 3
- Pope John Paul II (1995)
"Woman's identity cannot consist in being a copy of man, since she is endowed with her own qualities and prerogatives, which give her a particular uniqueness that is always to be fostered and encouraged... To all in our age who offer selfish models for affirming the feminine personality, the luminous and holy figure of the Lord's Mother shows how only by self-giving and self-forgetfulness towards others is it possible to attain authentic fulfillment of the divine plan for one's own life." 4
- Statement by "Christians for Biblical Equality" a conservative Christian organization
"...the Bible, properly interpreted, teaches the fundamental equality of men and women of all racial and ethnic groups, all economic classes, and all age groups, based on the teachings of scripture as reflected in Galatians 3:28: 'There is neither Jew nor Greek, there is neither slave nor free, there is neither male nor female; for you are all one in Christ Jesus.' " 7
- Jerry Falwell
"Most of these feminists are radical, frustrated lesbians, many of them, and man-haters, and failures in their relationships with men, and who have declared war on the male gender. The Biblical condemnation of feminism has to do with its radical philosophy and goals. That's the bottom line.
- The Council on Biblical Manhood & Womanhood (1997)
"...God, by creating Adam first (Gen. 2:18; 1 Cor. 11:8) and also by creating woman for man (Gen. 2:18,20,22; 1 Cor. 11:9), has set the gender-based role and responsibility of males in the most basic unit of society (the family) to be that of leader, provider and self-sacrificial protector (also cf. Eph. 5:25; 1 Peter 3:7), and likewise has set the gender-based role and responsibility of females to be that of help and nurture (Gen. 2:18) and life-giving (Gen. 3:20) under male leadership and protection (cf. 1 Peter 3:7)..." 8
- Randall Terry, head of Operation Rescue
"...make dads the godly leaders [of the family] with the women in submission, raising kids for the glory of God."
So I say why fight Islam's subjugation and abuse of women specifically, and just fight the subjugation and abuse of women in general.
However, I suspect that Islam's treatment of women is mixed... as is Christianity's. So I think it's a mistake to say that __________ treats women badly.
One thing I know is that characterizing Islam (and just about anything newsworthy) based how TV covers it is probably a mistake. 28396. alistairConnor - 7/26/2006 4:21:40 PM If we had a discussion about Judaism and the bad stuff that has been done in its name, and how Jewish tradition negates women etc, without any Jewish participation in the discussion, what would you call that, Jen? 28397. judithathome - 7/27/2006 1:30:10 AM FOX News. 28398. Jenerator - 7/27/2006 2:24:05 PM You see, we can't talk about anything other than Christianiy in here.
28399. Jenerator - 7/27/2006 2:26:34 PM Wizard,
I'd say that the Christian response to terrorism is difficult. On the one hand we are definitely, resolutely called to pray for our enemies. And we should definitely help with humanitarian aide! Yet, should we allow ourselves to be attacked? I don't think so. 28400. Macnas - 7/27/2006 2:30:04 PM It's not easy, being green. 28401. Jenerator - 7/27/2006 2:33:01 PM 28396. alistairConnor - 7/26/2006 4:21:40 PM
If we had a discussion about Judaism and the bad stuff that has been done in its name, and how Jewish tradition negates women etc, without any Jewish participation in the discussion, what would you call that, Jen?
28397. judithathome - 7/27/2006 1:30:10 AM
FOX News.
You must not watch Fox News, Judith.
28402. Jenerator - 7/27/2006 2:34:10 PM And Alistair, as for having participation from someone who practices the same form of Islam, I am all for you locating a poster who lives in the Middle East and is observant. 28403. wonkers2 - 7/27/2006 2:34:34 PM Yes, but should we destroy a country and kill hundreds of civilians because two of our soldiers are kidnapped. As Kristoff pointed out the British didn't bomb Boston or Dublin because some people there supported the IRA. And Spain didn't try to deal with ETA Basques based across the border and tolerated by France by bombing and then invading France. It strikes me as a matter of proportion. Also, it appears from what University Of Michigan professor, Juan Cole says, that Israel had been planning the invasion of Lebanon for some time and only used the kidnappings as a pretext. They also apparently got the green light well in advance by the Bush administration which is now rushing to supply additional high tech weapons to Israel while bitching about support for Hesbollah by Iran. Go figure. 28404. Jenerator - 7/27/2006 2:39:25 PM Wonkers,
Ever since Israel's withdraw of southern Lebanon, Israel has been watching Hezbollah with an emergency contigency plan. That's called SMART, and every Westernized country has a contigency plan. You know, a worst-case scenario type of plan? And not only did HEzbollah ignore the cease-fire, but it continued to shoot rockets randomly into Israel. Hezbollah was voted in OVERWHELMINGLY to the government, the Interior Minister so much as vowing total annhiliation of Israel, and it continued to siphon weapons in through Syrian and Iran. The attack on the Israeli soldies was the final straw, and honestly, who can blame them for wanting to get rid of Hezbollah and to protect its borders?
28405. Macnas - 7/27/2006 2:53:32 PM So, whats with destroying the infrastructure and killing lebanese civilians and UN observers?
All part of the plan? 28406. Jenerator - 7/27/2006 3:01:32 PM I'm not aware of bombs that exist that do not destroy infrastructure or occaswionally kill civilians. That isa,d the weapons Israel is using are more precise than Hebollhas, and Israel has been dropping leaflets warning the civilian to leave or seek shelter.
Hezboolah is just firing of fajr and katusha rockets aimed at cities, everyone in particular. 28407. Jenerator - 7/27/2006 3:02:31 PM Sorry, I am typing with one finger while holding the baby. I'll be back latyer. Sorry for the typos! 28408. wonkers2 - 7/27/2006 3:08:52 PM Getting rid of Hezbolla is wishful thinking, not unlike the Bush-Cheney-Rumsfeld-Wolfowitz-Perle-Gaffney-Halliburton-Exxon plan for invading and democratizing Iraq. 28409. Macnas - 7/27/2006 3:10:38 PM No jen, the IDF is bombing whatever it thinks harbors or is of use to the Hairys, and does not care about civilian deaths or the effect that destroying power and water plants has on the rest of the population. It wanted the UN observers out of that position so it shelled them until they were eventually killed.
There are people there trying to dig their babies out of the rubble with bare hands.
I'm not supporting Hezbollah, far from it, they too are a violent organisation who do not care about the widespread damage and deadly consequence of their actions. But your defence of the IDF and all it's actions is quite sickening to me. Sorry, but it is.
Anyway, wrong thread for this stuff. 28410. alistairconnor - 7/27/2006 3:13:50 PM And Alistair, as for having participation from someone who practices the same form of Islam, I am all for you locating a poster who lives in the Middle East and is observant.
I'm not sure why living in the Middle East is particularly relevant if it's Islam you want to discuss. Or do you really want to discuss the geopolitical implications of Islam in the Middle East? That's not the same thing.
For example, if a Moslem from Malaysia or Indonesia joined the discussion, why would that pose a problem? (apart from the fact that they would be more difficult for you to catalogue and stereotype...)
and what particular "form of islam" did you want to discuss? 28411. alistairconnor - 7/27/2006 3:33:32 PM I'd say that the Christian response to terrorism is difficult. On the one hand we are definitely, resolutely called to pray for our enemies. And we should definitely help with humanitarian aide! Yet, should we allow ourselves to be attacked? I don't think so.
Wiz, Jen, I think you're both barking up the wrong tree. A Christian response to terrorism is the last thing in the world we need. That would be to explicitly recognise that there were a religious conflict between Islam and Christianity, which in itself would validate that terrorism. On the contrary it is urgent to wipe religion from the international agenda.
And in any case, I see little evidence of terrorism directed specifically against Christians on the part of Islamists. It's overwhelmingly directed against Jews (Hezbollah) and Moslems (Iraq). 28412. TheWizardOfWhimsy - 7/27/2006 4:16:36 PM You misrepresent my points, Alistair. I'm saying you can't claim to be Christian and advocate innocent slaughter. Where did I say otherwise?
Wrt religious zealotry, hatred is the reason behind all of the slaughter and it will always be a spiral downward until the root causes for the hatred are addressed.
If America and the many Zionist supporters around the world refuse to acknowledge the decades of humiliation and suffering that the Palestinians have endured as a result of colonial injustice, the increased murder and mayhem will only make this planet even more of a living-hell. Hatred and outrage burns everything in its path because of its nature.
I know what the response will be at this point: "What about The Jew's suffering?" I would respond that The Holocaust doesn't give Israel the right to behave like Fascist state that willfully imposes the suffering and degradation of innocent people–regardless of their beliefs and intentions. The Jews, of all people, should know better.
If this is what you were implying, then we are in agreement.
28413. Jenerator - 7/28/2006 2:58:28 AM Macnas,
I think you and I are just both distraught at innocent people being killed. I know you think I don't care, but that's not true. I am a mother and it pains me to see pictures of dead children, reagardless of their nationality, ethnicity or religion. I hate Hezbollah, not all Lebanese. I hate it that innocent Lebanese and Israelis are dying. I wish militant Islam would go away.
Alistair,
I'm not sure why living in the Middle East is particularly relevant if it's Islam you want to discuss. Or do you really want to discuss the geopolitical implications of Islam in the Middle East? That's not the same thing.
I thought you all were trying to find someone who could relate to the Islam that is being practiced in the Middle East - especially since the Israeli/Hezbollah crisis.
if a Moslem from Malaysia or Indonesia joined the discussion, why would that pose a problem?
It wouldn't. I think though, that there would be some differences in culture and perhaps attitude toward Islam, but in the end, they would still be of the same religion. Just make sure you find someone observant.
(apart from the fact that they would be more difficult for you to catalogue and stereotype...)
Nice try, but I am not looking for someone to catalogue and stereotype.
and what particular "form of islam" did you want to discuss?
Traditional Islam, Arabian Islam, Wahabi Islam. (Same thing)
On the contrary it is urgent to wipe religion from the international agenda.
That ain't going to happen.
Wizard,
I'm saying you can't claim to be Christian and advocate innocent slaughter.
Who's the Christian advocating innocent slaughter? If you say me, you're full of hot air, because I have NEVER advocated innocent slaughter. In fact, *I* use that argument against abortion (it's murder of innocent life).
Wrt religious zealotry, hatred is the reason behind all of the slaughter and it will always be a spiral downward until the root causes for the hatred are addressed.
I totally agree. The problem is, we cannot change the heart of man, but one at a time, and I do not foresee that happening with any terrorist organization. I think there has to be a degree of rationality that enables a man to even acknowledge zealotry, let alone want to change it. I don't see how that's possible with militants.
acknowledge the decades of humiliation and suffering that the Palestinians have endured as a result of colonial injustice, the increased murder and mayhem will only make this planet even more of a living-hell. Hatred and outrage burns everything in its path because of its nature.
You're completely neglecting any culpability of the Palestinians!!! How can you do that? It's the Zionists and Colonialists who are bad, and the PLO, Al Jihad, and Al Aqsa are just misunderstood resisters fighting oppression?? I guess the terror they've inflicted on INNOCENT Israelis is okay? You need to take a long hard look at Yasser Arafat and the PLO, Wiz. Instead of investing the millions and millions of dollars he received in aide to the Palestinians, he lined his pockets. He could have built up infrastructure and housing complexes and so on and so forth and he didn't. And his supporters didn't make him. Ask Suha how life in her Paris chateau is while her 'people' suffer. Look at the complete picture. And while you dislike the State of Israel's sovereignty, the fact of the matter is, it's an official country, a legal country, and a thriving country. The Palestinians need to assimilate instead of rallying behind terrorist organizations.
28414. TheWizardOfWhimsy - 7/28/2006 4:56:16 AM Jen, you are the one advocating Israel's policies and those policies are killing way more innocent Lebanese than Israelis. So yes, you are advocating the slaughter of innocent people even though you refuse to admit it.
You still can't even come lose to seeing the point. I can't discuss it with you because you won't even acknowledge the injustice inflicted on the Palestinians. They got screwed by world powers who gave their country away to the Jews who are now acting like Fascists. They were robbed. Have you ever been robbed, Jen?
And yes Palestinians were exploited by bad leadership and acted out their outrage on innocents. But look at the numbers of Palestinian dead compared to Israelis and then tell me there's equal suffering.
Yes, Arafat was a corrupt leader who exploited Palestinians' fear and hatred–but, I might add, George Bush has been exploiting the fear and hatred in America for almost five years now. Just look at Exxon-Mobil and Halliburton profits or the billions squandered in Iraq or New Orleans.
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