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28402. Jenerator - 7/27/2006 2:34:10 PM And Alistair, as for having participation from someone who practices the same form of Islam, I am all for you locating a poster who lives in the Middle East and is observant. 28403. wonkers2 - 7/27/2006 2:34:34 PM Yes, but should we destroy a country and kill hundreds of civilians because two of our soldiers are kidnapped. As Kristoff pointed out the British didn't bomb Boston or Dublin because some people there supported the IRA. And Spain didn't try to deal with ETA Basques based across the border and tolerated by France by bombing and then invading France. It strikes me as a matter of proportion. Also, it appears from what University Of Michigan professor, Juan Cole says, that Israel had been planning the invasion of Lebanon for some time and only used the kidnappings as a pretext. They also apparently got the green light well in advance by the Bush administration which is now rushing to supply additional high tech weapons to Israel while bitching about support for Hesbollah by Iran. Go figure. 28404. Jenerator - 7/27/2006 2:39:25 PM Wonkers,
Ever since Israel's withdraw of southern Lebanon, Israel has been watching Hezbollah with an emergency contigency plan. That's called SMART, and every Westernized country has a contigency plan. You know, a worst-case scenario type of plan? And not only did HEzbollah ignore the cease-fire, but it continued to shoot rockets randomly into Israel. Hezbollah was voted in OVERWHELMINGLY to the government, the Interior Minister so much as vowing total annhiliation of Israel, and it continued to siphon weapons in through Syrian and Iran. The attack on the Israeli soldies was the final straw, and honestly, who can blame them for wanting to get rid of Hezbollah and to protect its borders?
28405. Macnas - 7/27/2006 2:53:32 PM So, whats with destroying the infrastructure and killing lebanese civilians and UN observers?
All part of the plan? 28406. Jenerator - 7/27/2006 3:01:32 PM I'm not aware of bombs that exist that do not destroy infrastructure or occaswionally kill civilians. That isa,d the weapons Israel is using are more precise than Hebollhas, and Israel has been dropping leaflets warning the civilian to leave or seek shelter.
Hezboolah is just firing of fajr and katusha rockets aimed at cities, everyone in particular. 28407. Jenerator - 7/27/2006 3:02:31 PM Sorry, I am typing with one finger while holding the baby. I'll be back latyer. Sorry for the typos! 28408. wonkers2 - 7/27/2006 3:08:52 PM Getting rid of Hezbolla is wishful thinking, not unlike the Bush-Cheney-Rumsfeld-Wolfowitz-Perle-Gaffney-Halliburton-Exxon plan for invading and democratizing Iraq. 28409. Macnas - 7/27/2006 3:10:38 PM No jen, the IDF is bombing whatever it thinks harbors or is of use to the Hairys, and does not care about civilian deaths or the effect that destroying power and water plants has on the rest of the population. It wanted the UN observers out of that position so it shelled them until they were eventually killed.
There are people there trying to dig their babies out of the rubble with bare hands.
I'm not supporting Hezbollah, far from it, they too are a violent organisation who do not care about the widespread damage and deadly consequence of their actions. But your defence of the IDF and all it's actions is quite sickening to me. Sorry, but it is.
Anyway, wrong thread for this stuff. 28410. alistairconnor - 7/27/2006 3:13:50 PM And Alistair, as for having participation from someone who practices the same form of Islam, I am all for you locating a poster who lives in the Middle East and is observant.
I'm not sure why living in the Middle East is particularly relevant if it's Islam you want to discuss. Or do you really want to discuss the geopolitical implications of Islam in the Middle East? That's not the same thing.
For example, if a Moslem from Malaysia or Indonesia joined the discussion, why would that pose a problem? (apart from the fact that they would be more difficult for you to catalogue and stereotype...)
and what particular "form of islam" did you want to discuss? 28411. alistairconnor - 7/27/2006 3:33:32 PM I'd say that the Christian response to terrorism is difficult. On the one hand we are definitely, resolutely called to pray for our enemies. And we should definitely help with humanitarian aide! Yet, should we allow ourselves to be attacked? I don't think so.
Wiz, Jen, I think you're both barking up the wrong tree. A Christian response to terrorism is the last thing in the world we need. That would be to explicitly recognise that there were a religious conflict between Islam and Christianity, which in itself would validate that terrorism. On the contrary it is urgent to wipe religion from the international agenda.
And in any case, I see little evidence of terrorism directed specifically against Christians on the part of Islamists. It's overwhelmingly directed against Jews (Hezbollah) and Moslems (Iraq). 28412. TheWizardOfWhimsy - 7/27/2006 4:16:36 PM You misrepresent my points, Alistair. I'm saying you can't claim to be Christian and advocate innocent slaughter. Where did I say otherwise?
Wrt religious zealotry, hatred is the reason behind all of the slaughter and it will always be a spiral downward until the root causes for the hatred are addressed.
If America and the many Zionist supporters around the world refuse to acknowledge the decades of humiliation and suffering that the Palestinians have endured as a result of colonial injustice, the increased murder and mayhem will only make this planet even more of a living-hell. Hatred and outrage burns everything in its path because of its nature.
I know what the response will be at this point: "What about The Jew's suffering?" I would respond that The Holocaust doesn't give Israel the right to behave like Fascist state that willfully imposes the suffering and degradation of innocent people–regardless of their beliefs and intentions. The Jews, of all people, should know better.
If this is what you were implying, then we are in agreement.
28413. Jenerator - 7/28/2006 2:58:28 AM Macnas,
I think you and I are just both distraught at innocent people being killed. I know you think I don't care, but that's not true. I am a mother and it pains me to see pictures of dead children, reagardless of their nationality, ethnicity or religion. I hate Hezbollah, not all Lebanese. I hate it that innocent Lebanese and Israelis are dying. I wish militant Islam would go away.
Alistair,
I'm not sure why living in the Middle East is particularly relevant if it's Islam you want to discuss. Or do you really want to discuss the geopolitical implications of Islam in the Middle East? That's not the same thing.
I thought you all were trying to find someone who could relate to the Islam that is being practiced in the Middle East - especially since the Israeli/Hezbollah crisis.
if a Moslem from Malaysia or Indonesia joined the discussion, why would that pose a problem?
It wouldn't. I think though, that there would be some differences in culture and perhaps attitude toward Islam, but in the end, they would still be of the same religion. Just make sure you find someone observant.
(apart from the fact that they would be more difficult for you to catalogue and stereotype...)
Nice try, but I am not looking for someone to catalogue and stereotype.
and what particular "form of islam" did you want to discuss?
Traditional Islam, Arabian Islam, Wahabi Islam. (Same thing)
On the contrary it is urgent to wipe religion from the international agenda.
That ain't going to happen.
Wizard,
I'm saying you can't claim to be Christian and advocate innocent slaughter.
Who's the Christian advocating innocent slaughter? If you say me, you're full of hot air, because I have NEVER advocated innocent slaughter. In fact, *I* use that argument against abortion (it's murder of innocent life).
Wrt religious zealotry, hatred is the reason behind all of the slaughter and it will always be a spiral downward until the root causes for the hatred are addressed.
I totally agree. The problem is, we cannot change the heart of man, but one at a time, and I do not foresee that happening with any terrorist organization. I think there has to be a degree of rationality that enables a man to even acknowledge zealotry, let alone want to change it. I don't see how that's possible with militants.
acknowledge the decades of humiliation and suffering that the Palestinians have endured as a result of colonial injustice, the increased murder and mayhem will only make this planet even more of a living-hell. Hatred and outrage burns everything in its path because of its nature.
You're completely neglecting any culpability of the Palestinians!!! How can you do that? It's the Zionists and Colonialists who are bad, and the PLO, Al Jihad, and Al Aqsa are just misunderstood resisters fighting oppression?? I guess the terror they've inflicted on INNOCENT Israelis is okay? You need to take a long hard look at Yasser Arafat and the PLO, Wiz. Instead of investing the millions and millions of dollars he received in aide to the Palestinians, he lined his pockets. He could have built up infrastructure and housing complexes and so on and so forth and he didn't. And his supporters didn't make him. Ask Suha how life in her Paris chateau is while her 'people' suffer. Look at the complete picture. And while you dislike the State of Israel's sovereignty, the fact of the matter is, it's an official country, a legal country, and a thriving country. The Palestinians need to assimilate instead of rallying behind terrorist organizations.
28414. TheWizardOfWhimsy - 7/28/2006 4:56:16 AM Jen, you are the one advocating Israel's policies and those policies are killing way more innocent Lebanese than Israelis. So yes, you are advocating the slaughter of innocent people even though you refuse to admit it.
You still can't even come lose to seeing the point. I can't discuss it with you because you won't even acknowledge the injustice inflicted on the Palestinians. They got screwed by world powers who gave their country away to the Jews who are now acting like Fascists. They were robbed. Have you ever been robbed, Jen?
And yes Palestinians were exploited by bad leadership and acted out their outrage on innocents. But look at the numbers of Palestinian dead compared to Israelis and then tell me there's equal suffering.
Yes, Arafat was a corrupt leader who exploited Palestinians' fear and hatred–but, I might add, George Bush has been exploiting the fear and hatred in America for almost five years now. Just look at Exxon-Mobil and Halliburton profits or the billions squandered in Iraq or New Orleans.
28415. Macnas - 7/28/2006 8:30:49 AM Jen
You're not being genuine. Behind all that hand wringing for the innocent, you are happy to bear it all if the Hairy guys can be destroyed.
Now, I support any nations right to defend itself, and I see Israel as a legitimate nation to boot. It's a real democratic place, with more parties than spring break, and so many factions and splinter groups it boggles the mind.
Read the JP for an insight into the political hurly burly that is modern Israel.
However, I abhor the way it sometimes defends itself, and the way it sees the rest of the world.
The rest of the world can (and will) go to hell, other than the US, and then only because they got the money.
This special relationship perverts the natural flow of international diplomacy and responsibility. The UN has just come out with a pathetic statement on the death of the observers, remember? Those men who were killed by those precise bombs you fancy so much?
It says it's shocked by the incident. The US used its weight and would not allow any condemnation or criticism of Israel.
You should be ashamed of your government.
28416. alistairconnor - 7/28/2006 10:04:31 AM Traditional Islam, Arabian Islam, Wahabi Islam. (Same thing)
You're really displaying your ignorance and prejudice there, Jen.
"Traditional" islam comes in many varieties, like traditional Christianity.
Arabian islam : mostly Sunni, some Shiite.
Wahabi islam : a small, extremist Sunni sect which happens to be in power, unfortunately, in America's great ally Saudi Arabia. It's a problem.
So here we have the root of your problem with Islam : to you, they are all the same, they are all (Wahabi) Bin Ladens. That's called prejudice and stereotyping. Get over that, and perhaps we can have a rational discussion about "Islam". 28417. JEnerator - 7/28/2006 1:37:11 PM Muslims believe that Allah only speaks Arabic. 28418. JEnerator - 7/28/2006 1:37:58 PM So, let's begin with Wahabi Islam 28419. Jenerator - 7/28/2006 1:43:46 PM I am going to define certain terms and give examples.
From PBS-
Wahhabism - It is an austere form of Islam that insists on a literal interpretation of the Koran. Strict Wahhabis believe that all those who don't practice their form of Islam are heathens and enemies.
The religious curriculum in Saudi Arabia teaches you that people are basically two sides: Salafis [Wahhabis], who are the winners, the chosen ones, who will go to heaven, and the rest. The rest are Muslims and Christians and Jews and others.
They are either kafirs, who are deniers of God, or mushrak, putting gods next to God, or enervators, that's the lightest one. The enervators of religion who are they call the Sunni Muslims who ... for instance, celebrate Prophet Mohammed's birthday, and do some stuff that is not accepted by Salafis.
And all of these people are not accepted by Salafi as Muslims. As I said, "claimant to Islam." And all of these people are supposed to be hated, to be persecuted, even killed. And we have several clergy -- not one Salafi clergy -- who have said that against the Shi'a and against the other Muslims. And they have done it in Algeria, in Afghanistan. This is the same ideology. They just have the same opportunity. They did it in Algeria and Afghanistan, and now New York. ...
Can you show me an example of what the [religious teaching is in the schools?
Well, here, this is a book, hadif, for ninth grade. Hadif is a statement of Prophet Mohammed. This is a book that start for ninth graders. This is talking about the victory of Muslims over Jews. This is a hadif that I truly believe it's not true, as a Muslim:
"The day of judgment will not arrive until Muslims fight Jews, and Muslim will kill Jews until the Jew hides behind a tree or a stone. Then the tree and the stone will say, 'Oh Muslim, oh, servant of God, this is a Jew behind me. Come and kill him.' Except one type of a tree, which is a Jew tree. That will not say that." This is taught for 14-year-old boys in Saudi Arabia
28420. Jenerator - 7/28/2006 1:59:21 PM Shia Islam-
Shi'a Islam (also called Shiite, or Shi'i) is the second largest division of Islam, constituting about 10-15% of all Muslims. Shia Muslims hold the fundamental beliefs of other Muslims. In addition to these tenets, however, Shia believe in the imamate, which is the distinctive institution of Shia Islam...Shia Muslims hold a hereditary view of Muslim leadership. They believe the Prophet Muhammad designated Ali to be his successor as Imam (when uppercase, Imam refers to the Shia descendant of the House of Ali), exercising both spiritual and temporal leadership. Only those who have walayat (spiritual guidance) are free from error and sin and have been chosen by God through the Prophet. Each Imam in turn designated his successor--through twelve Imams--each holding the same powers.
A significant practice of Shia Islam is that of visiting the shrines of Imams in Iraq and in Iran.
Shia Islam has developed several sects. The most important of these is the Twelver, or Ithna-Ashari, sect, which predominates in the Shia world generally. Not all Shia became Twelvers, however.
Sunni Islam -
Makes up 90% of the Muslim population.
SuSunnis constitute the vast majority of the world's Muslims. They believe that the first four supreme religious leaders, or caliphs, were the rightful successors of the Prophet Mohammed. Sunni Islam draws its name from its identification with the importance of the Sunnah, which literally means "the path." The Sunnah is the example set by the life of the prophet Mohammed. The written document based on the teachings and practices of Mohammed, known as the Hadith, serves as a supplement to the Koran.
Sunni Islam does not possess clerical hierarchies and centralized institutions. The absence of a hierarchy has been a source of strength that has permitted the faith to adapt to local conditions. However, it also has been a weakness that makes it difficult for Sunni Muslims to achieve any significant degree of solidarity. Despite some very minor disputes there are many Sub-Groups in the four groups like Kharjiites, Wahabis, Deobandi, Barelvi, Ahle-Sunnat Wal Jamat, Ahle Hadith, Ghurba Ahle Hadits, Sunnis of Green Turban, Sunnis of Brown Turbans etc. etc. They declare each other wrong and seldom offer prayer behind each other.
For Sunnis, even a bad Muslim ruler is preferable to chaos and anarchy, and the Sunni religious tradition contains only a limited right to rebel. However, if a ruler commands something that is contrary to God’s law, the subject’s duty of obedience lapses.
28421. alistairconnor - 7/28/2006 2:15:47 PM Don't really see the point in this, Jen. We didn't come here to be educated about Islam...
But I'm gratified that you are instructing yourself, and that you now know how to distinguish between Wahabis and other Moslems.
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