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28487. Jenerator - 7/31/2006 5:43:10 PM Sorry about typos, I am not proofing.
Baby is awake, I'll be back later. 28488. PelleNilsson - 7/31/2006 6:33:53 PM Yes, for my part, I have heard many times that "Islam needs a renaissance" and also regret that the Muslim world has not experienced anything like the Enlightenment, which was the starting point for so many things we, in the so called Christian West, set value on, like democracy, the slowly improving rights of women, the separation of church and state, so on.
But the church's role in this was to fight to the hilt against any change that threatened its self-proclaimed prerogative of defining what is right or wrong. But in the end secularism won the day.
Shall we assume, Jen, that you advocate more secularism in the Muslim world, a moving away from the perceived rules laid down by God? If so, I'm with you all the way.
Another observation relating to your sources. The Koran, like the Bible, is like a box of Lego pieces. By picking and choosing the "right ones" you can build any edifice you want.
28489. PelleNilsson - 7/31/2006 6:46:55 PM And talking about sources. You referred to
http://www.islaam.com/Article.aspx?id=575>
This is an article from 1995. Did you locate it all by yourself? I think not. I think we should know the source of your sources. 28490. concerned - 8/1/2006 1:23:44 AM Concise history of Islam's origins and influences:
The Arabs' direct ancestors destroyed the Middle East's natural ecology, effectively turning Eden into about the closest thing to hell on earth on which mankind could survive. Islam naturally followed.
28491. concerned - 8/1/2006 1:29:02 AM Pelle has put himself in an, IMO, untenable position where he cannot admit any great unilateral inferiority of Islam to Christianity, such as its miserable penchant to call for destructive and pointless jihads. 28492. judithathome - 8/1/2006 2:30:00 AM Pelle merely wants to know Jen's sources...there's nothing wrong with that. 28493. Jenerator - 8/1/2006 3:12:48 AM Pelle,
And talking about sources. You referred to
http://www.islaam.com/Article.aspx?id=575>
This is an article from 1995. Did you locate it all by yourself? I think not. I think we should know the source of your sources.
Huh? I do not understand what you're asking or implying. Did I find that link all by myself? Yes, it was easy, would you like for me to show you how?
First you go to my link islamworld.net, then you look at the various topics listed. I found a few that addressed some of the topics - they are written by various Imams and scholars. I went to one link and it was written by Al-Isrhaad. What's the big deal, do you not like him? 28494. Jenerator - 8/1/2006 3:16:56 AM I went back to trace my steps exactly and it was easier than I expected.
Pelle, if you go to http://www.islamworld.net/ and scroll to 'Islamic Character', you will see a link to 30 signs.
Does that answer your question? 28495. Jenerator - 8/1/2006 3:17:43 AM Oops, it's 'Muslim Character'. 28496. Jenerator - 8/1/2006 2:27:33 PM Rick,
Interesting article!
Morocco’s constitution and secular laws granted women full equality. In practice, Islamic based family law – the centuries-old Moudawana – prevailed.
What do you think needs to happen in order to change tradition or custom? The hadiths outline how women are to be treated and we're seeing more and more of strict Islamism. 28497. anomie - 8/2/2006 11:03:13 AM How to change harmful traditions and customs? It starts in childhood. Doesn't the UN have some sort of program to eliminate child abuse and exploitation? We should work to outlaw religious participation for anyone under the age of consent. We do this for sexual abuse because it's harmful and has lasting effects. Religious indoctrination is just as harmful and the effects are certainly lasting. 28498. Macnas - 8/2/2006 11:09:00 AM Only for bad religions though, right Jen? 28499. anomie - 8/2/2006 11:10:11 AM Talk about brainwashing. I saw an interview with a muslim woman in her garb who all during the interview insisted she was free to do as she please just as western women were. When challenged that she had to ask permissiom from her male family members for a variety of things, her response was that it was normal - that asking permission was how it should be in an orderly life - and she didn't see how it impaired her freedom. She had the same attitude about her dress requirements and other inequities. To her, this is how life should be and she felt perfectly "free". She didn't see what all the fuss was about. 28500. anomie - 8/2/2006 11:15:30 AM Jen,
What was your point about highlighting this: "they all deserve to have the wrath of Allah upon them."?
I mean this is the standard line from Chritianity is it not? We are all unworthy unless we believe or conform to certain conditions, (thus we are deserving God's wrath...death, hell).
I'm curious why you singled this out in a discussion of Islam. 28501. Jenerator - 8/2/2006 1:57:22 PM Anomie,
How to change harmful traditions and customs? It starts in childhood. Doesn't the UN have some sort of program to eliminate child abuse and exploitation? We should work to outlaw religious participation for anyone under the age of consent.
Are you trying to be funny or serious? Why would we want to outlaw all religious participation? First demonstrate that all religious participation is akin to child abuse.
We do this for sexual abuse because it's harmful and has lasting effects. Religious indoctrination is just as harmful and the effects are certainly lasting.
Enough with the hyperbole, Anomie. How is 'Love your neighbor' harmful? Secondly, wrt Islam, Muslims are charitable and give to the needy. Is that bad?
This is unrealistic. People are not going to stand for soneone or some agency criminalizing the introduction of religion to children.
That said, I DO think it is child abuse for certain Muslims to raise their children as martyrs.
28502. Jenerator - 8/2/2006 2:04:28 PM Anomie,
Jen,
What was your point about highlighting this: "they all deserve to have the wrath of Allah upon them."?
I mean this is the standard line from Chritianity is it not? We are all unworthy unless we believe or conform to certain conditions, (thus we are deserving God's wrath...death, hell).
Yes, in a theological sense. If we choose to be separated from God, we will suffer the consequences in the herafter, by God. Plenty of nonbelievers are thriving on earth, yes?
Why I highlighted that small part (I hope you read the rest) was because I am showing that a key part of the Mulsim view against non-believers and pagans is that they deserve whatever wrath comes their way - now and later. I am eventually working up to showing how Muslims are called to be part of that wrath against them...
28503. wonkers2 - 8/2/2006 2:39:43 PM "They deserve whatever comes their way" also seems to be the attitude of quite a few radical Christians and other true believers. 28504. judithathome - 8/2/2006 3:07:12 PM That said, I DO think it is child abuse for certain Muslims to raise their children as martyrs.
Martyrs come in all stripes.
28505. TheWizardOfWhimsy - 8/2/2006 3:36:12 PM Martyrs come in all stripes.
Indeed, you should meet my older Catholic half-sister! 28506. Jenerator - 8/2/2006 3:55:32 PM Wonkers,
They deserve whatever comes their way" also seems to be the attitude of quite a few radical Christians and other true believers
I agree, but I don't think it's limited to fringe or fanatics. I know that for me, I have a certain resignation about things happening to people. I bet we all do. What I said to Anomie is that I am eventually working up to show how Muslims are called to be part of that wrath against unbelievers, not just be resigned to Allah's judgment of them.
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