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28492. judithathome - 8/1/2006 2:30:00 AM Pelle merely wants to know Jen's sources...there's nothing wrong with that. 28493. Jenerator - 8/1/2006 3:12:48 AM Pelle,
And talking about sources. You referred to
http://www.islaam.com/Article.aspx?id=575>
This is an article from 1995. Did you locate it all by yourself? I think not. I think we should know the source of your sources.
Huh? I do not understand what you're asking or implying. Did I find that link all by myself? Yes, it was easy, would you like for me to show you how?
First you go to my link islamworld.net, then you look at the various topics listed. I found a few that addressed some of the topics - they are written by various Imams and scholars. I went to one link and it was written by Al-Isrhaad. What's the big deal, do you not like him? 28494. Jenerator - 8/1/2006 3:16:56 AM I went back to trace my steps exactly and it was easier than I expected.
Pelle, if you go to http://www.islamworld.net/ and scroll to 'Islamic Character', you will see a link to 30 signs.
Does that answer your question? 28495. Jenerator - 8/1/2006 3:17:43 AM Oops, it's 'Muslim Character'. 28496. Jenerator - 8/1/2006 2:27:33 PM Rick,
Interesting article!
Morocco’s constitution and secular laws granted women full equality. In practice, Islamic based family law – the centuries-old Moudawana – prevailed.
What do you think needs to happen in order to change tradition or custom? The hadiths outline how women are to be treated and we're seeing more and more of strict Islamism. 28497. anomie - 8/2/2006 11:03:13 AM How to change harmful traditions and customs? It starts in childhood. Doesn't the UN have some sort of program to eliminate child abuse and exploitation? We should work to outlaw religious participation for anyone under the age of consent. We do this for sexual abuse because it's harmful and has lasting effects. Religious indoctrination is just as harmful and the effects are certainly lasting. 28498. Macnas - 8/2/2006 11:09:00 AM Only for bad religions though, right Jen? 28499. anomie - 8/2/2006 11:10:11 AM Talk about brainwashing. I saw an interview with a muslim woman in her garb who all during the interview insisted she was free to do as she please just as western women were. When challenged that she had to ask permissiom from her male family members for a variety of things, her response was that it was normal - that asking permission was how it should be in an orderly life - and she didn't see how it impaired her freedom. She had the same attitude about her dress requirements and other inequities. To her, this is how life should be and she felt perfectly "free". She didn't see what all the fuss was about. 28500. anomie - 8/2/2006 11:15:30 AM Jen,
What was your point about highlighting this: "they all deserve to have the wrath of Allah upon them."?
I mean this is the standard line from Chritianity is it not? We are all unworthy unless we believe or conform to certain conditions, (thus we are deserving God's wrath...death, hell).
I'm curious why you singled this out in a discussion of Islam. 28501. Jenerator - 8/2/2006 1:57:22 PM Anomie,
How to change harmful traditions and customs? It starts in childhood. Doesn't the UN have some sort of program to eliminate child abuse and exploitation? We should work to outlaw religious participation for anyone under the age of consent.
Are you trying to be funny or serious? Why would we want to outlaw all religious participation? First demonstrate that all religious participation is akin to child abuse.
We do this for sexual abuse because it's harmful and has lasting effects. Religious indoctrination is just as harmful and the effects are certainly lasting.
Enough with the hyperbole, Anomie. How is 'Love your neighbor' harmful? Secondly, wrt Islam, Muslims are charitable and give to the needy. Is that bad?
This is unrealistic. People are not going to stand for soneone or some agency criminalizing the introduction of religion to children.
That said, I DO think it is child abuse for certain Muslims to raise their children as martyrs.
28502. Jenerator - 8/2/2006 2:04:28 PM Anomie,
Jen,
What was your point about highlighting this: "they all deserve to have the wrath of Allah upon them."?
I mean this is the standard line from Chritianity is it not? We are all unworthy unless we believe or conform to certain conditions, (thus we are deserving God's wrath...death, hell).
Yes, in a theological sense. If we choose to be separated from God, we will suffer the consequences in the herafter, by God. Plenty of nonbelievers are thriving on earth, yes?
Why I highlighted that small part (I hope you read the rest) was because I am showing that a key part of the Mulsim view against non-believers and pagans is that they deserve whatever wrath comes their way - now and later. I am eventually working up to showing how Muslims are called to be part of that wrath against them...
28503. wonkers2 - 8/2/2006 2:39:43 PM "They deserve whatever comes their way" also seems to be the attitude of quite a few radical Christians and other true believers. 28504. judithathome - 8/2/2006 3:07:12 PM That said, I DO think it is child abuse for certain Muslims to raise their children as martyrs.
Martyrs come in all stripes.
28505. TheWizardOfWhimsy - 8/2/2006 3:36:12 PM Martyrs come in all stripes.
Indeed, you should meet my older Catholic half-sister! 28506. Jenerator - 8/2/2006 3:55:32 PM Wonkers,
They deserve whatever comes their way" also seems to be the attitude of quite a few radical Christians and other true believers
I agree, but I don't think it's limited to fringe or fanatics. I know that for me, I have a certain resignation about things happening to people. I bet we all do. What I said to Anomie is that I am eventually working up to show how Muslims are called to be part of that wrath against unbelievers, not just be resigned to Allah's judgment of them.
28507. judithathome - 8/2/2006 3:59:11 PM Well, I guess I'm going to be truly doomed...first the wrath of YOUR God is called down on me and now I have to worry about Muslims heaping it on me, too? Some days it just doesn't pay to get out of bed. 28508. anomie - 8/2/2006 10:19:56 PM Jen,
I'm dead serious about banning childhood religious indoctrination. When will this happen? When hell freezes over, I'm sure.
As to the long lasting harm, hyperbole is not intended I assure you. I think the negative effects consist mainly of the inability for critical thinking. I wish "Love thy neighbor" was the main teaching, but you know that not true. Starting with toddlers we teach them about sin, satan, demons, fear, salvation (they need saving from the wrath of the very God we call "good"), sacrifice, blood rituals, flesh eating, etc. We instill feelings of unworthiness and guilt. But perhaps most harmful is that we teach them to be "certain" about being right...about inarguable truths that create factions, unbelievers and enemies. This certainty morphs into the actions we see today. It creates Martyrs and worse. This is not abuse? 28509. anomie - 8/2/2006 10:26:53 PM Jen,
I don't bend the topic toward Christianity on purpose, but I can't help wondering what your motives are for posting all this stuff about the beliefs of Muslims. Your stated beliefs about morality line up parallel to theirs in almost every way. They differ by degrees and timing, perhaps, but in the end your God is going to send a certain nunber of people to hell, and he allows the killing of innocents everyday. He is the father of Christianity and Islam afterall.
I'd really like your views about whether any of these current events fit into God's plan and if not why, and whether God has a "plan" at all. 28510. Jenerator - 8/2/2006 10:37:53 PM Anomie,
As to the long lasting harm, hyperbole is not intended I assure you. I think the negative effects consist mainly of the inability for critical thinking.
I think this is based purely on your feeling rather than fact.
I wish "Love thy neighbor" was the main teaching, but you know that not true.
You're incorrect. My son is in a Christian pre-K and love is the constant them.
Starting with toddlers we teach them about sin, satan, demons, fear, salvation (they need saving from the wrath of the very God we call "good"), sacrifice, blood rituals, flesh eating, etc.
Wrong again. My son hasn't been exposed to complicated themes within the bible.
We instill feelings of unworthiness and guilt.
Wrong yet again. I do my best to instill unconditional love and guidance and so do his teachers.
But perhaps most harmful is that we teach them to be "certain" about being right...about inarguable truths that create factions, unbelievers and enemies.
I think you're creating facts.
This certainty morphs into the actions we see today. It creates Martyrs and worse. This is not abuse?
If your scenario were as you put it, I could understand why you would feel that way. But it's not.
28511. Jenerator - 8/2/2006 10:42:07 PM I don't bend the topic toward Christianity on purpose, but I can't help wondering what your motives are for posting all this stuff about the beliefs of Muslims.
Because we never really talk about Islam, we dance around it. Sure we may mention it, but we never dissect it.
Your stated beliefs about morality line up parallel to theirs in almost every way.
In some ways, you're probably right. But in others, I would probably have to disagree.
They differ by degrees and timing, perhaps, but in the end your God is going to send a certain nunber of people to hell, and he allows the killing of innocents everyday. He is the father of Christianity and Islam afterall.
And so your point is?
I'd really like your views about whether any of these current events fit into God's plan and if not why, and whether God has a "plan" at all.
Everything fits into God's plan, but what that plan is, we can only speculate through intense study of his word and through prayer.
Sometimes I wonder if the "great fallingaway " in scripture is modern-day Islam. I used to think it was secular humanism, but I believe that what we're seeing with Islam is more polarizing and more damaging.
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