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28500. anomie - 8/2/2006 11:15:30 AM Jen,
What was your point about highlighting this: "they all deserve to have the wrath of Allah upon them."?
I mean this is the standard line from Chritianity is it not? We are all unworthy unless we believe or conform to certain conditions, (thus we are deserving God's wrath...death, hell).
I'm curious why you singled this out in a discussion of Islam. 28501. Jenerator - 8/2/2006 1:57:22 PM Anomie,
How to change harmful traditions and customs? It starts in childhood. Doesn't the UN have some sort of program to eliminate child abuse and exploitation? We should work to outlaw religious participation for anyone under the age of consent.
Are you trying to be funny or serious? Why would we want to outlaw all religious participation? First demonstrate that all religious participation is akin to child abuse.
We do this for sexual abuse because it's harmful and has lasting effects. Religious indoctrination is just as harmful and the effects are certainly lasting.
Enough with the hyperbole, Anomie. How is 'Love your neighbor' harmful? Secondly, wrt Islam, Muslims are charitable and give to the needy. Is that bad?
This is unrealistic. People are not going to stand for soneone or some agency criminalizing the introduction of religion to children.
That said, I DO think it is child abuse for certain Muslims to raise their children as martyrs.
28502. Jenerator - 8/2/2006 2:04:28 PM Anomie,
Jen,
What was your point about highlighting this: "they all deserve to have the wrath of Allah upon them."?
I mean this is the standard line from Chritianity is it not? We are all unworthy unless we believe or conform to certain conditions, (thus we are deserving God's wrath...death, hell).
Yes, in a theological sense. If we choose to be separated from God, we will suffer the consequences in the herafter, by God. Plenty of nonbelievers are thriving on earth, yes?
Why I highlighted that small part (I hope you read the rest) was because I am showing that a key part of the Mulsim view against non-believers and pagans is that they deserve whatever wrath comes their way - now and later. I am eventually working up to showing how Muslims are called to be part of that wrath against them...
28503. wonkers2 - 8/2/2006 2:39:43 PM "They deserve whatever comes their way" also seems to be the attitude of quite a few radical Christians and other true believers. 28504. judithathome - 8/2/2006 3:07:12 PM That said, I DO think it is child abuse for certain Muslims to raise their children as martyrs.
Martyrs come in all stripes.
28505. TheWizardOfWhimsy - 8/2/2006 3:36:12 PM Martyrs come in all stripes.
Indeed, you should meet my older Catholic half-sister! 28506. Jenerator - 8/2/2006 3:55:32 PM Wonkers,
They deserve whatever comes their way" also seems to be the attitude of quite a few radical Christians and other true believers
I agree, but I don't think it's limited to fringe or fanatics. I know that for me, I have a certain resignation about things happening to people. I bet we all do. What I said to Anomie is that I am eventually working up to show how Muslims are called to be part of that wrath against unbelievers, not just be resigned to Allah's judgment of them.
28507. judithathome - 8/2/2006 3:59:11 PM Well, I guess I'm going to be truly doomed...first the wrath of YOUR God is called down on me and now I have to worry about Muslims heaping it on me, too? Some days it just doesn't pay to get out of bed. 28508. anomie - 8/2/2006 10:19:56 PM Jen,
I'm dead serious about banning childhood religious indoctrination. When will this happen? When hell freezes over, I'm sure.
As to the long lasting harm, hyperbole is not intended I assure you. I think the negative effects consist mainly of the inability for critical thinking. I wish "Love thy neighbor" was the main teaching, but you know that not true. Starting with toddlers we teach them about sin, satan, demons, fear, salvation (they need saving from the wrath of the very God we call "good"), sacrifice, blood rituals, flesh eating, etc. We instill feelings of unworthiness and guilt. But perhaps most harmful is that we teach them to be "certain" about being right...about inarguable truths that create factions, unbelievers and enemies. This certainty morphs into the actions we see today. It creates Martyrs and worse. This is not abuse? 28509. anomie - 8/2/2006 10:26:53 PM Jen,
I don't bend the topic toward Christianity on purpose, but I can't help wondering what your motives are for posting all this stuff about the beliefs of Muslims. Your stated beliefs about morality line up parallel to theirs in almost every way. They differ by degrees and timing, perhaps, but in the end your God is going to send a certain nunber of people to hell, and he allows the killing of innocents everyday. He is the father of Christianity and Islam afterall.
I'd really like your views about whether any of these current events fit into God's plan and if not why, and whether God has a "plan" at all. 28510. Jenerator - 8/2/2006 10:37:53 PM Anomie,
As to the long lasting harm, hyperbole is not intended I assure you. I think the negative effects consist mainly of the inability for critical thinking.
I think this is based purely on your feeling rather than fact.
I wish "Love thy neighbor" was the main teaching, but you know that not true.
You're incorrect. My son is in a Christian pre-K and love is the constant them.
Starting with toddlers we teach them about sin, satan, demons, fear, salvation (they need saving from the wrath of the very God we call "good"), sacrifice, blood rituals, flesh eating, etc.
Wrong again. My son hasn't been exposed to complicated themes within the bible.
We instill feelings of unworthiness and guilt.
Wrong yet again. I do my best to instill unconditional love and guidance and so do his teachers.
But perhaps most harmful is that we teach them to be "certain" about being right...about inarguable truths that create factions, unbelievers and enemies.
I think you're creating facts.
This certainty morphs into the actions we see today. It creates Martyrs and worse. This is not abuse?
If your scenario were as you put it, I could understand why you would feel that way. But it's not.
28511. Jenerator - 8/2/2006 10:42:07 PM I don't bend the topic toward Christianity on purpose, but I can't help wondering what your motives are for posting all this stuff about the beliefs of Muslims.
Because we never really talk about Islam, we dance around it. Sure we may mention it, but we never dissect it.
Your stated beliefs about morality line up parallel to theirs in almost every way.
In some ways, you're probably right. But in others, I would probably have to disagree.
They differ by degrees and timing, perhaps, but in the end your God is going to send a certain nunber of people to hell, and he allows the killing of innocents everyday. He is the father of Christianity and Islam afterall.
And so your point is?
I'd really like your views about whether any of these current events fit into God's plan and if not why, and whether God has a "plan" at all.
Everything fits into God's plan, but what that plan is, we can only speculate through intense study of his word and through prayer.
Sometimes I wonder if the "great fallingaway " in scripture is modern-day Islam. I used to think it was secular humanism, but I believe that what we're seeing with Islam is more polarizing and more damaging.
28512. anomie - 8/2/2006 11:32:35 PM I don't think the example of your son fits here. Unless you're denying mainstream Christian doctrine, you're not making an argument. I'm curious what age your son will be when you start teaching him about the things I mentioned. You WILL want him to know all about Satan - no? You will want him to be clear on the fact that it's God's wrath he should fear, not Satan's- right? 6? 8? When will he understand how he was born unworthy and hopeless unless he does such and such?
My point about the roots of both religions is that there is no difference in the big picture moral questions, in that they are not moral at all. Those who conform are in. Those who don't are out. That's all. When each is absolutely certain of being right, and when that belief results in death, pain, and suffering, it seems absurd to criticise the dress habits of women. The problem is much deeper than that.
28513. anomie - 8/2/2006 11:38:17 PM Interesting that you believe everything fits into God's plan. Does that mean everyone is playing the role God assigned? Should good Christians not be grateful to their Islamic cousins while killing them? 28514. Adam Selene - 8/3/2006 4:38:39 AM I was a christian once. I was raised as a Babtist and as a teenager I even walked the aisle to be babtized - and was.
It is sooo tempting. Just surrender and be taken care of.
What a gift! And so psychologically fitting... don't worry, just have faith (i.e., pretend you understand) and your heavenly father will take care of you. Just do what he says and trust in what he told people to write in some letters and memos a few thousand years ago. Just trust in those people who spread the word verbally for a few dozen years. Just trust those who finally wrote it down. And trust those who translated it. And translated it. And trust the church that cherry-picked which authors to bless as those particular ones to form the gospel...
I found the word and all was good.
But...
Then I read the word.
Yech. God kills people who exercise the free will he gave them! God is jealous! God smites those who don't understand him! God is love! er, ya. God is MALE!!! God created the world a few thousand years ago and made it look like it was billions of years old! God created dinosaur bones and burried them! God created floods to punish people who acted as if they had free will and did stuff he didn't like!
God acted just like a kid's idea of a bad father! Then he sacrificed his son for "us". The son who is now lord our god in heaven... er, who is dead... who gave the ultimate so he coulb be the highest... er, something like that.
I still haven't quite figured that out. So.. if god said to me, "you will pay the ultimate price and reap the ultimate benefit..." ya, I'd sure turn that one down.
"Who are you - what have you sacrificed?" JC Superstar. 28515. iiibbb - 8/3/2006 1:43:06 PM I was raised Presbyterian. I haven't gone to church much in my life, but I am not an atheist. There's a lot about the universe that random chance and evolution can't seem to account for. Specifically, I'm thinking about the capacity for love, the capacity for man to trancend time by history and science. The goal of natural selection is to reproduce the genes. I don't see how these capacities necessarily promote that. There seems to be something more there.
So I'm not an atheist. Life seems especially unfulfilling if I didn't beleive in something.
When I read the Bible... particularly the New Testiment... I am struck by what a difficult task it would be to actually be a perfect person. The New Testiment really sets you up for a fall. For any of us to be 'worthy' we'd have to give away everything we have... we'd have to give up our egos... pride... etc. What human can do that?
So not being an Atheist... and recognizing that everyone is imperfect... I realize that I must depend on God's love for us to redeam us. So Jesus is God's gift to us. So whether you beleive he was real or just a metaphor...
the point is that hopefully you want to live a worthy life... that you recognize that you are a sinner and really have no hope of not being one... that you want redemption.
So I don't know how God's going to work it all out in the end. I know the Bible I read has been translated and re-translated. However, if you go to first principals. God is love. Jesus redeams us. I'll take that gift and I'll go with it... I don't need to understand it much more than that.
I don't see it the same way as you Adam... I don't think it's about letting go of free will and just letting things happen. I think it's all about using your free will to figure out the right path as best you can. What you don't have to worry about is that if you screw up that you're necessarily going to be damned for eternity over it.
Personally... I'm not much into the hell thing anyway. I don't think it makes any sense if God has a "father's" love for us. As long as we don't forsake "him" (best pronoun I can use... sorry... English is limited), I don't think "he's" going to forsake us. 28516. TheWizardOfWhimsy - 8/3/2006 4:33:09 PM If you have video capabilities this is a very informative piece of insight and awareness . . .
The Power of Nightmares:
The Rise of the Politics of Fear (2004)
This documentary offers a remarkable insight into the reality of our current fear induced climate. Adam Curtis chronicles the rise of neo-conservatism and the resulting change in the world's political agenda orchestrated by those who place their trust in the philosophical ideal of the necessity of evil to unite a country. The filmmaker manages to successfully pluck apart the myth of the reality of there being a logistically organized terror network, let alone one that is managing to orchestrate terror attacks from a cave in the remote mountains of Afghanistan. His arguments are backed up by some eye opening interviews with authorities on the field of Islamic fundamentalism, members of the US government and members of the US judicial system. These insights are parred with concrete, startling facts and the result is a program that manages to shake us awake making us aware of a far more realistic terror threat namely that of psychological warfare carried out by the powers that be, accompanied by a sensationalist media frenzy. I cannot recommend this program highly enough." -imdb.com 28517. anomie - 8/3/2006 11:18:50 PM I don't know, iiibbb...you're trying to sound reasonable but in the context of what I was talking about you're damaged goods. You've bought into a world view that says you are unworthy, imperfect, and need redemption from something you can't see, touch, or hear. It's like being caught up in a video game concept. You think you have free will but you're stuck in the console and have to play by the rules, win or lose. There's no personal morality in this scenario. Anything the game designer does, no matter how cruel or absurb is okay. You started playing the game very early in your life and it seems normal now.
True free will would let you opt out of the game, appreciate being human, develop a true sense of morality.
As to your theology, this is when I miss having Kuligin around. It would have been fun to see him jump on your post. 28518. anomie - 8/3/2006 11:28:23 PM Wiz...thanks for the links.
You know it's shame how information is received these days. The repubs have warped the thinking of a large segment of the population.
I say the above as a preface to saying there should be a campaign to inform people of some simple risk assessment principles. People should know there's a better chance they'll win the lottery than being hurt by a terrorist. Especially so if they don't travel much. But then Ann Coulterists would hit that fast as lightening to show how liberals aren't concerned about national defense.
28519. anomie - 8/3/2006 11:37:20 PM Adam,
You remind me... MSN Slate is running a feature called "Blogging the Bible". The entries are clever, funny and thought-provoking in the mode of your last post. They're up to Numbers now.
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