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28522. anomie - 8/4/2006 11:44:11 AM iiibbb,
I meant no insult with the "damaged goods" bit. Sorry if it came across that way. I used the phrase "in context" because I had been talking about childhood indoctrination and Islam.
Despite what I think, you may be totally correct about everything you say. I give you that.
As to me being damaged goods...this has long been suspected. 28523. iiibbb - 8/4/2006 1:01:28 PM I may have it wrong too. I've decided I'm not really in the business of telling people what relationship they should have with God (or whatever).
The closest thing to a known that I have to work with is that I think there's something more to life than just what I can prove and I think there is something more to my life than my deeds... but that's why they call it faith after all.
As far as indoctrination. I can speek as someone who was raised in a Protestant church, drifted, and have been coming back. As a child I didn't know why Protestants were Protestants. Now that I have started examining it in depth, I find that I'm very much in line with the Protestant way of thinking about Chistianity.
I don't know what God has planned for Moslems or Jews etc. I've more or less decided that if (the if is for your benefit) God exists and he is our father (again for lack of a better pronoun), then he will not forsake us if we do not forsake him. So I don't really buy into the Hell thing. I don't claim to know what the real plan is.
All I do know is that I'm not an Atheist.
Back to indoctrination. There are many perspectives.
There are
- Believers who have always been (I would lump in athiests in this group - they believe there is nothing beyond this life).
- There are those who eventually reject their upbringing.
- There are those who have become agnostic and returned to a faith.
- There are those who were never raised anything and find a belief.
- There are those who switch beliefs with some jumps being more dramatic than others.
I don't think there's a perfect formula for indoctrination... or childhood indoctrination. I certainly can't say much about it except that as my life has progressed, the things that I was exposed to as a kid make more sense now... at least to me. 28524. TheWizardOfWhimsy - 8/4/2006 4:16:09 PM The word "indoctrination" [Teach (a person or group) to accept a set of beliefs uncritically] carries the seeds of its own failing.
I suspect that it's all a fear-based motivation, regardless of the belief system that initiates it.
True love and goodness isn't based on fear, it's based on tolerance and letting go with self-surrender. Fear implies a clinging to one's beliefs for security. Faith, on the other hand, is more about letting go and trust. We don't learn to ride a bike or swim by clinging to a secure place--we push off, away from what we know to a new awareness.
That's why I lose respect for religious zealots--they ignore the spirit of The Sermon on the Mount and head right for the dogmatic literalness of the Old Testament. It's the same in Judaism and Islam, imo. 28525. iiibbb - 8/4/2006 4:57:58 PM Not that I think you're directing the comment to me WoW.
I certainly don't think my beliefs are based in fear. Does a child behave a certain way to their parent because they fear them... or because they love them.
Do most parents use carrots or sticks?
I think those that are hard on religion generalizing the motives of religious people a bit to much.
All the fire and brimstone... the threat of "eternal damnation" just seems like a human construct to me. I think they illustrate a point to anyone who might need a little humility. However, it doesn't make sense when you think about what God is about. Of course I may be absolutely wrong... but I'm certainly trying to figure it out for myself. 28526. iiibbb - 8/4/2006 4:58:06 PM One of my collegues has a rather cynical take on life... I like the irony in his thesis. People are motivated by either fear... or greed. Just about anything you offer he can twist into one of those two categories. In reality I try to be a little more hopeful than he is... but that's just greed according to him. 28527. iiibbb - 8/4/2006 5:01:54 PM My favorite part of the whole Bible is I Corinthians 13. If God loves us... if you love anything... this is what it should entail.
Words to live by. 28528. Trillium - 8/4/2006 5:31:05 PM Nice link, iiibbb.
I also like the verse on "perfect love casts out fear" (couldn't tell you where to find it, though)
Always remember though that some people actually enjoy fear, that's what horror movies are about, and they have huge audiences. If it isn't one thing it will be another. Are we going to ban horror movies as child abuse? (actually, I kind of like that idea...) 28529. PelleNilsson - 8/4/2006 6:29:10 PM 1 John 4:18 (KJV)
There is no fear in love; but perfect love casteth out fear: because fear hath torment. He that feareth is not made perfect in love.
I suppose you haven't noticed, Trillium (hello by the way!), but at the top of the right-hand column there are a number of links to internet resoures, among them the Bible Gateway, where I found the above. Your quote, in modern English is from the New American Standard Bible. The KJV is always to be preferred. 28530. TheWizardOfWhimsy - 8/4/2006 6:42:55 PM Not that I think you're directing the comment to me WoW.
I wasn't; it was just my two cents about "indoctrination" – fear & belief vs. love & faith. 28531. anomie - 8/4/2006 6:50:33 PM iiibbb,
If you think God is not to be feared, then what do you need redemption from? What's your state of being before and after redemption? 28532. iiibbb - 8/4/2006 6:59:51 PM Why should I fear God? God loves me.
When you've wronged a loved-one. Do you make ammends out of fear, or out of love and respect for them?
I don't know what my state of being is going to be. I hope it's good. I hope it's good for everyone. 28533. iiibbb - 8/4/2006 7:00:43 PM Why are my motives necessarily rooted in fear? 28534. iiibbb - 8/4/2006 7:06:57 PM In the Christian doctorine... Jesus is God's proof that he loves us no matter what.
Why does that concept necessarily root itself in fear?
This is why I identify more with Potestant doctrine. It seems more grounded in your personal relationship with God... rather than one mediated by the church. 28535. iiibbb - 8/4/2006 7:14:33 PM Message # 28532
Perhaps to make it more clear... maybe not. But perhaps the redemption is as much for me as it is for God. 28536. PelleNilsson - 8/4/2006 7:16:38 PM When you have wronged a loved one and make amends, I think it is rooted in fear: the fear of losing her love. 28537. iiibbb - 8/4/2006 7:20:16 PM Perhaps... but when you make ammends you also trust that person enough to go forward with it. 28538. iiibbb - 8/4/2006 7:20:58 PM And if God has perfect love for you... what have you got to fear if you do go forward? 28539. PelleNilsson - 8/4/2006 7:23:54 PM Nothing, except that I don't believe in the Christian (and Jewish and Muslim) God. 28540. anomie - 8/4/2006 7:27:35 PM Forgive me iiibbb, I'm really tryng to understand, but it seems I'm not being very clear. You made me believe you needed/wanted redemption from higher power, not a friend or parent. I understand forgiveness from real tangable entities. But just why do you need redemption from God if he poses no threat? If the threat is merely a withdrawel of love, how would that manifest itself? How would you know he didn't love you anymore?
What did Jesus do to "prove" God's unconditional love. If te love is unconditional, why do you need redemption? (Sorry for soundinf repetitive, but it comes from readinf your post.
How would you describe your "personal relationship" with God as anything more than and opinion about something. For instance, I can tell you some concrete demonstratable facts about anyone I have a personal relationship with. You seem to have only vague opinions and intuitions about God. And perhaps that's good enough...I'm just asking. 28541. anomie - 8/4/2006 7:30:42 PM Sorry about the typos...
iiibbb The before/after redemption question is about now, not later. I assume you recieve redemption in the here and now. If so, I wonder how that changes you. Is it just like a mood lift...a feeling of rightiousness...a fresh start - that kind of thing.
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