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28540. anomie - 8/4/2006 7:27:35 PM Forgive me iiibbb, I'm really tryng to understand, but it seems I'm not being very clear. You made me believe you needed/wanted redemption from higher power, not a friend or parent. I understand forgiveness from real tangable entities. But just why do you need redemption from God if he poses no threat? If the threat is merely a withdrawel of love, how would that manifest itself? How would you know he didn't love you anymore?
What did Jesus do to "prove" God's unconditional love. If te love is unconditional, why do you need redemption? (Sorry for soundinf repetitive, but it comes from readinf your post.
How would you describe your "personal relationship" with God as anything more than and opinion about something. For instance, I can tell you some concrete demonstratable facts about anyone I have a personal relationship with. You seem to have only vague opinions and intuitions about God. And perhaps that's good enough...I'm just asking. 28541. anomie - 8/4/2006 7:30:42 PM Sorry about the typos...
iiibbb The before/after redemption question is about now, not later. I assume you recieve redemption in the here and now. If so, I wonder how that changes you. Is it just like a mood lift...a feeling of rightiousness...a fresh start - that kind of thing. 28542. iiibbb - 8/4/2006 7:31:11 PM That's fine (I am not aware whether you are an atheist or some other religion)... but your disbelief is irrelevant to my motives which I am only explaing to you. I'm not seeking anyone's validation of it. I don't need anyone's validation. Through some lenses religion appears to be pablum for a weak mind. Where someone might get themselves in trouble is judging others through their own lens.
Personally, I think there's something more to life. That's all I can tell you. 28543. iiibbb - 8/4/2006 7:46:44 PM Message # 28540 I'm just using loved-ones and parents as the direct analogy to our relationship with God as I see it.
I need redemption because I want it... not necessarily because God expects it. I just know that there is room for improvement in almost everything I am. I am completely cognizant of the fact that I don't have everything figured out.
The matter of Jesus is purely one of faith. If his role in anyone's life could be proven like a science theorum then everyone would just beleive in God and the whole idea faith would become a moot point. Faith is faith... it requires you to go beyond physical proof.
I can't justify any of my beleifs. Some of them are counter to literal readings of certain sections of the Bible. I recognize that Christianity has been heavily influenced by interpretations of interpretations. However, if I go to first principals about God being love, Jesus being a gift, and what love really means... That's when the faith starts to speak to me.
Again... I could be entirely wrong. It's just what I believe is the case as best as I can explain it.
Message # 28541
I don't know what it does for me. I suppose it will manifest itself as just peace of mind. Most of these revelations are only a couple of years old for me. I married a Jewish woman this summer and it has caused me to re-evaluate most of my upbringing and where I am in my religious beliefs.
I have no theological training. I don't claim I'm right. I don't even know why I elected to post in the first place... I ususally dread conversations about religion on the internet.
My ramblings are probably an inadequate and unsatisfying description of where I am with it all. 28544. iiibbb - 8/4/2006 7:50:59 PM Most of this is being written as I attempt to revise a manuscript... so I don't know how well I'm describing things, but I don't have time to carefully write either. I've been coming in here whenever I've had a block there. 28545. anomie - 8/4/2006 8:14:54 PM iiibbb,
I've thoroughly enjoyed it and I appreciate you giving me your thoughts. Inevitably the questions posed sound more like challenges than curiosity, but I am genuinely curious how people understand their beliefs. I'm consistently convinced that they dont understand in a rational sense. Maybe that's the nature of it.
Vocabulary never seems adequate to explain ones religious insights, which makes me think there might be some transcendent process going on in the brain. I mean, people use words that have absolutely no meaning whatsoever when talking about God. One small illustartion is the word "proof". I don't know why you used it, so I asked you and it seems the meaning of the word simply vanished. You then explained to me how proof would elminate faith. Don't you think this is curious?
I agree with your definition about faith though. Faith without some doubt is simply knowledge or certainty. 28546. iiibbb - 8/4/2006 8:34:07 PM Well I'm glad I wasn't too unclear. Vocabulary and the internet make explanations about relgious insights doubly convoluted.
To extend one of your prior thoughts further... why do we need to ask for God's forgiveness if he already knows everything?
Wouldn't it be easier if he just knows, forgives, and that's it? It sort of defeats the purpose of seeking insight... but just like a championship game with a cindirella team... that's why we play the game. It reminds me of a show on Nickalodian a long time ago... I forget what led up to it but something happened that took the fun out of everything. The kids were playing kick the can sitting in a circle with calculators calculating odds. One kid finally says blandly "I won." Then another kid blandly replies "Yup."
I'm driven by my desire to live as good a life as I can as well as I can understand it. I don't think it's a simple matter of opinion. I do lots of things I don't want to do because I know it's right. I fail to do lots of things I know is right as well.
I would think anyone who turns a truly critical eye to themselves would realize that are failures (overly harsh word). Isn't that what most Moslems believe is the true jihad, to overcome your own mortal limitations? 28547. anomie - 8/4/2006 8:57:13 PM The forgiveness I need comes from fellow human beings. I don't seem to need a religious framework to construct a moral code. I think humans probably had an innate sense of morality first - at the dawn of concsiousness, say - and later evolved a concept of sin, guilt, and God.
I agree that prayer seems unnecessary to an omnipotent God, but he has a lot of rules don't ya know. 28548. arkymalarky - 8/5/2006 3:25:21 AM I really like your perspective 3i3b, and it's very similar to mine. 28549. Trillium - 8/5/2006 8:06:33 PM Pelle, verily, thou hast pleas'd me with thy KJV quote in #28529.
Anomie, different people pray in different ways, to get different things from the practice.
It's true, for a person unwilling to acknowledge personal imperfection, prayer might be a time for throwing up yet more barricades to the surrounding universe.
I've noticed many people use their prayer practice differently, though -- not as a tool for bludgeoning themselves or the rest of the universe, but rather as a time for reflection, pulling back and seeking guidance on problems.
It doesn't really matter whether you believe in a "God" or whatever. The retreat, silence, introspection and looking honestly into your own imagination can be helpful, and many people use prayer this way. 28550. anomie - 8/5/2006 9:07:04 PM Trillium,
Prayer is a communication with a god. The other things you mentioned are...other things, not prayer. Introspection can be an aspect of prayer, but if there's no god involved it's just introspection.
But it again ahows that when it comes to religion, people use words in a way to make them meaningless. This reflects their confusion. It's almost like self-deception when we THINK we say something but we don't have a clue what it is. So we end up contradicting ourselves. If you read back, you'll see that while trying to explain something to me you basically said "prayer" isn't prayer. Just as iiibbb said "proof" isn't proof. 28551. Trillium - 8/5/2006 10:54:45 PM Anomie - if I bring a complaint to a religious woman; and she listens, then lower her eyes and tells me she'll "pray on it"; comes back the next day willing to give me space and negotiate, then her prayer has worked for her, and for me. However she does it, however she defines her prayer.
People often use words in a way that makes them meaningless, and not just about religion. But if my attempt to use words here only creates more confusion about religion, then I'll drop it and go take the laundry off the line... that's sure to be a successful use of my energies... 28552. anomie - 8/6/2006 12:16:12 AM Not that it's any of my business, but based on the way you use the word I have no idea if the religious woman prayed or just had a quiet moment. Why not use "prayer" for prayer, and "X" for X? Again, prayer is communication a god. Do you argue it's not? You say it can mean anything at all?
When people misuse words in a non-religious way, they usually don't spend time defending their error as religious people do.
In any case, don't take my comments personally. Your energies here are never wasted and always appreciated. But you can't leave laundry out forever... 28553. Trillium - 8/6/2006 3:18:05 AM Thanks anomie...I got everything inside and folded before the storm broke!
and just wasted a bit of time looking over the Guardian website, where they had something on prayer, including a quotation from the Dalai Lama about it. I liked it, but lost the link in the meantime; it sounded like the DL takes a broad view of prayer. Maybe I'll find it tomorrow! have to log back off now. 28554. anomie - 8/6/2006 8:16:49 PM I take a broad view of prayer too. I'm sure there are more ways to pray than there are people. I'm sure people contemplate and pray at the same time. I'm just saying it's not prayer unless a god, or idea of a god is involved somewhere. My whole disagreement with you relates to your assertion that, "...It doesn't really matter whether you believe in a "God" or whatever..." Yes it does matter. Without believing in a god or whatever, it's not prayer. It's something else. 28555. Trillium - 8/6/2006 9:23:29 PM now let me see if this will work:
About Prayer
anomie, your definition -- that prayer isn't prayer if it doesn't address a specific god -- might be a fundamentalist view of some sort. It does seem like a very limited definition of prayer to me.
Lots of people pray, and I have found prayer to be a foundation for understanding with other people who do it. I'm used to the idea of prayer; it is part of my family's tradition. My father would take me to go pray with my grandmother at her home, in the months before she died. It was a positive experience, comforting to all of us.
If someone says that they are going to "pray", I don't ask for a description of their personal god or non-god, or belief system. I take their word "prayer" to be a description of an activity involving spiritual communion in some form or fashion. Some of the people I know, who pray, don't believe in any kind of god in particular, but they do believe that they are praying (and I agree that they are).
So I guess you would disagree with their use of the word "pray" if their religion doesn't fit your idea of a religion... or something? Please clarify your definition. The Buddhists pray without being particularly god-centered, and I'm sure lots of non-Buddhists do also. 28556. Trillium - 8/6/2006 9:25:36 PM The link goes to a Guardian site that will probably disappear in a matter of time, they don't keep things up for very long. Here is a copy from the GUT thread discussion header:
This is not a thread to discuss the existence or otherwise of God. Prayer as a mental activity demonstrably 'works' for millions of people. It improves lives, it focuses minds, it brings peace to people who have nowhere else to turn.
Prayer can never be over-estimated but is often under-estmated by those who don't do it. Is prayer a natural activity of the human brain? It is very personal, and it is often extremely effective whether God exists or not. Why is this? 28557. anomie - 8/6/2006 10:06:58 PM Trillium,
We're carrying on about nothing. Let the dictionary prevail.
But I hope you didn't make any false assumptions about what I said. I didn't assert that God must exist for prayer to be real, nor does anyone have to be able to explain their god to me. I don't care if their god - or idea of god - is a peanut shell. I'm also not making an argument about whether prayer changes people or makes any difference at all. So, I concede to almost everything you said except one.
28558. Trillium - 8/7/2006 2:19:40 AM Okay, anomie.... 28559. wonkers2 - 8/12/2006 1:47:55 PM Detroit Muslims Support Tolerance and Inter-faith reconcialiation Here.
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