|
28577. alistairConnor - 9/24/2006 10:28:31 AM What would have happened if the Turks had been stopped?
You mean, like if the Crusaders had allied with Byzantium instead of weakening Christendom by sacking Constantinople?
(The religious component of the Crusades is exagerated. They were mostly an opportunity for looting and empire-building.)
As historical conjectures go, this is a pretty far-fetched one. The Byzantine empire was economically and militarily weak, its territory constantly retreating. They were overcome by more vigorous newcomers, like the Arabs in Spain.
I don't get the bit about Jews obeying God. Well OK, this is a religion thread, not a history thread, so I suppose supernatural conjecture is allowed. 28578. alistairConnor - 9/24/2006 10:38:44 AM I have read about religious interference in the recent Swedish elections.
It appears that an extremist protestant sect, the Plymouth Brethren, have been spending millions to promote the right wing alliance that won a narrow victory last week :
The Brethren have paid for ads in some of Sweden's biggest newspapers, they have done direct marketing in mailboxes in many parts of Sweden, they have been leafleting and put flyers on cars in many places.
I wonder what Swedish electoral law says about this sort of activity.
This group has pulled the same stunt in a number of countries, there is an ongoing scandal about it in NZ because the right-wing party that they supported actually knew about their intended campaign beforehand, and there have been challenges to its legality.
But surely, religious groups have a right to lobby electors like any other special interest group? (they promote very conservative patriarchal values).
Well, yes, but :
* the money generally flows in from another country (into Sweden from England, it appears)
* the brethren are opposed to democracy, and their members are forbidden to vote.
Is this a scandal in Sweden? I don't know. Perhaps Pelle could fill us in? 28579. PelleNilsson - 9/24/2006 8:05:17 PM Total nonsense.
Are you into conspiracy theories these days, Alistair? Good luck. There are plenty to choose from. 28580. alistairConnor - 9/24/2006 9:28:17 PM That's a bit short, Pelle. I suspect this means that you've never heard about it.
Or are you denying that the Brethren backed the Swedish Alliance?
They are well-known for interfering in elections all over the world, whenever they feel they have a strategic opportunity. There is absolutely no ambiguity about it, they admit it themselves when they are caught at it. In NZ at the moment, the leader of the right wing party is, amazingly, refusing to distance himself from them, although they are getting bad press (they apparently set private investigators to dig up dirt on politicians of the left, and the Prime Minister's husband). A recent article from the NZ press.
They are also well-documented as having done the same in Australia (they love John Howard).
I'm not saying that religious groups should not be allowed to play politics. But when it's done covertly, by people who don't believe in democracy, then it's a potential problem. 28581. wonkers2 - 9/24/2006 9:46:17 PM Maybe he's a supporter?? 28582. PelleNilsson - 9/25/2006 8:19:17 AM This "news" originated with a blog and got blown up by one of the tabloids here. It never made its way into the mainstream media. The Brethren have about 400 members in Sweden, most of them in small rural places. 28583. alistairconnor - 9/25/2006 9:18:41 AM Are you saying that it been disproved, then, that they spent millions supporting the right? Or are you asserting that it's no big deal if they did?
Or are you just assuming that if there was a real story, the mainstream media would have picked up on it? That would be rather lazy of you.
As you know, Pelle, there are lots of events that never make it into the news. There is no need to postulate a conspiracy to explain this fact; nor is there any justification for assuming that anything that anything which is not widely reported is not real.
The fact that there are so few Brethren in Sweden only makes their interference more egrerious, in view of the fact that the money is allegedly coming in from overseas.
The thing that I find most disturbing about the methods of this particular fundamentalist international (there is indeed a conspiracy, if you like to call it that, but it's fact, not theory) is its underhand efficacy.
When the Russian or Albanian communist parties used to fund their sister organisations around the world, everyone knew about it, it was a standing joke, and the electoral impact of the money was negligeable. But the Brethren, instead of supporting a party which accurately reflects their ideals (which would put them on the extreme right, anywhere in the world), they choose to aid the more conservative side in closely-fought contests. This is, in practice, far more subversive.
That's not to say that the Swedish right is compromised by the fact that these extremists support them (though it would be interesting to know whether there were contacts : there usually are, in the Brethren modus operandi).
Would it be news, Pelle, if it were alleged that a Wahabi organisation, or Hezbollah, for example, had materially supported the Swedish left? 28584. Jenerator - 9/25/2006 12:16:53 PM If it doesn't matter to Pelle, it didn't happen.
Learn this Alistair, it'll save you much time and effort. He is the arbiter of what 'is'. 28585. PelleNilsson - 9/25/2006 6:09:14 PM What I'm saying, Alistair, is that advertisements and leaflets with extreme right-wing contents appeared in some provincial papers and towns. There is no evidence that this would have cost millions, except, perhaps, in Zimbabwian dollars. The blogger I spoke of found one of the leaflets tucked onto the windshield of his car. He wrote about it and wondered who might be the originator because it was signed by an unknown organization calling itself 'Nordas'. One of his readers suggested the Plymouth Brethren and it took off from there. The tabloid, whose watcher of obscure blogs had picked up the story, claimed to have sent a team to England where they found an abandoned office marked 'Nordas Sweden Ltd.' in a dilapidated industrial area in Liverpool and a purported representative who wouldn't comment on the matter. It was a one-day story. When nobody else took the bait it was dropped.
Personally, I think that the name 'Nordas' associates more easily to Nordic Asatru than to the Plymouth Brethren.
28586. jexster - 10/6/2006 8:17:14 PM The Amish victims of modern-day western values are exemplars of Christian charity....70x7 forgivenesss of the murders of their kids 28587. arkymalarky - 10/7/2006 12:16:01 AM I've just been so in awe of them with all this coverage. 28588. Jenerator - 10/7/2006 6:46:28 PM I just can't believe how much random brutality is going on. The Amish shooting is the epitome of evil. 28589. wonkers2 - 10/8/2006 1:19:17 AM Does that mean you support tighter gun control? 28590. jexster - 10/8/2006 1:24:09 AM I support the right to bear arms in Oakland-Alameda Coliseum for the duration
Don't show your face around here Capn 28591. Jenerator - 10/8/2006 3:17:06 PM Wonkers,
How about we enforce the rules we currently have! 28592. wonkers2 - 10/8/2006 5:59:50 PM I'm in favor of enforcing the current rules as best we can with all the loopholes. 28593. thoughtful - 10/9/2006 3:44:15 PM Interesting 4 part series ongoing in the NYT on religion and government. They are pointing out that, rather than religion being under seige as so many try to point out, religion in this country enjoys extraordinary exemptions from regulations that apply to everyone else.
First part talked about the regulations required of day care centers run privately including requirements for staff training, requirements for a food-only sink, requirements for filing financial statements, etc. vs. those run by a church where none of those regs apply.
Second part covered a nun who was 'fired' as the convent couldn't afford her needed breast cancer treatments. Rules and regs that apply to any employer regarding hiring/firing, nondiscrimination, etc. don't apply when the employer is a religious institution.
28594. jexster - 10/9/2006 9:03:39 PM As a public service Deacon (fomerly Cap'n) Dirty will be recalibrating Grand Old Pederasts Moral Compasses now until Election Day
 28595. wonkers2 - 10/10/2006 12:30:45 AM Deacon Dirty sez, "The GOP moral compass points only one direction--due south." 28596. judithathome - 10/10/2006 1:25:54 AM Yeah, but just watch how they try to deflect all this crap off onto the Democrats to justify keeping their guys in office...they will make excuse after excuse for voting for the party of morals...ha!...because they just can't admit they were used by BushCo...it's easier to keep the guys in office who only use then for votes than to admit they've been duped, big time.
|
