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28601. TheWizardOfWhimsy - 10/20/2006 4:57:49 PM ZEN JUDAISM
* If there is no self,
whose arthritis is this?
* Be here now.
Be someplace else later.
Is that so complicated?
* Attain Nothingness,
And then what do you have?
* Drink tea and nourish life.
With the first sip... joy.
With the second... satisfaction.
With the third, peace.
With the fourth, a danish.
* Wherever you go, there you are.
Your luggage is another story.
* Accept misfortune as a blessing.
Do not wish for perfect health
or a life without problems.
What would you talk about?
* The journey of a thousand miles
begins with a single "oy."
* There is no escaping karma.
In a previous life, you never called,
you never wrote, you never visited.
And whose fault was that?
* Zen is not easy.
It takes effort to attain nothingness.
And then what do you have?
Bupkes.
* The Tao does not speak.
The Tao does not blame.
The Tao does not take sides.
The Tao has no expectations.
The Tao demands nothing of others.
> The Tao is not Jewish.
* Breathe in. Breathe out.
Breathe in. Breathe out.
Forget this and attaining Enlightenment
will be the least of your problems.
* Let your mind be as a floating cloud.
Let your stillness be as the wooded glen.
And sit up straight. You'll never meet the
Buddha with such rounded shoulders.
* Be patient and achieve all things.
Be impatient and achieve all things faster.
*To Find the Buddha, look within.
Deep inside you are ten thousand flowers.
Each flower blossoms ten thousand times.
Each blossom has ten thousand petals.
You might want to see a specialist.
* To practice Zen and the art of Jewish
motorcycle maintenance, do the following:
Get rid of the motorcycle.
What were you thinking?
* Be aware of your body.
Be aware of your perceptions.
Keep in mind that not every physical
sensation is a symptom of a terminal illness.
* The Torah says,"Love thy neighbor as thyself."
The Buddha says there is no "self."
So, maybe you are off the hook.
* The Buddha taught that one should practice loving
kindness to all sentient beings. Still, would it kill you
to find a nice sentient being who happens to be Jewish?
* Though only your skin, sinews, and bones remain,
though your blood and flesh dry up and wither
away, yet shall you meditate and not stir
until you have attained full Enlightenment.
But, first, a little nosh 28602. wonkers2 - 10/21/2006 6:43:51 PM "There is a religious mafia among the priests, they protect each other, they help each other."> 28603. alistairConnor - 10/28/2006 1:23:21 PM In the International thread, Concerned posted :
7890. concerned - 10/27/2006 9:17:33 PM
[quoting me]On the other hand, you don't seem too keen to discuss the bloody verses of Christianity or Judaism.
I have a better idea. Let's discuss the " verses of Christianity or Judaism" that exhort the believer to lie to, cheat, defraud and murder those of other faiths.
Can't find any? Oh, well, there's plenty of them in the "verses of Islam" to make up for it.
This could be a long and fruitful discussion. I'm not intimately familiar with the Old Testament, but this is an interesting opportunity to learn.
I suggest we start with Genesis 34, where the sons of Jacob don't like the idea of their sister Dinah marrying Sechem, a Hivite, on the grounds that he and his people were not circumcised, i.e. were of a different religion.
And we can discuss how they dealt with this problem. 28604. alistairConnor - 10/28/2006 1:48:03 PM How about Numbers 15?
Here we have an explanation that people of other religions are subjected to all the strictures of the Jews when they happen to be among Jews :
15:15 One ordinance shall be both for you of the congregation, and also for the stranger that sojourneth with you, an ordinance for ever in your generations: as ye are, so shall the stranger be before the LORD.
15:16 One law and one manner shall be for you, and for the stranger that sojourneth with you.
Not, in itself, an injunction to religious tolerance. At best, we can say that it is even-handed.
There follows an explanation that when sins are committed out of ignorance, they may be atoned for by the correct sacrifices. This applies equally to Jews and non-Jews :
15:29 Ye shall have one law for him that sinneth through ignorance, both for him that is born among the children of Israel, and for the stranger that sojourneth among them.
The next passage, an anecdote, is a little bit puzzling. One would expect it to be an illustration of what has been explained.
15:32 And while the children of Israel were in the wilderness, they found a man that gathered sticks upon the sabbath day.
This guy is presumably a non-Jew : he is not part of the "children of Israel".
So shall we discuss what happens to him?
This is fun. Shooting fish in a barrel. 28605. jexster - 10/28/2006 5:52:16 PM Start with the Reconquista, thence to the Inquisistion and let them come forth with examples of forced conversionas of Christians and Jews
Bring it on you historians of Islamofascism 28606. jexster - 10/28/2006 7:59:45 PM You'd think that if forced conversions were a fundamental feature of Islam that you'd at least find it in the history of Islam in India where the monotheistic religion met the "pagans" - a group unlike the favored Christians and Jews is looked down upon, at least in its Meccan form.
Coincidentally, I'm just now watching a History Channel production "India" and they are quite emphatic. For 500 years or so, Muslims lived in India, even ruled at times and it wasn't until the invasion of the Mughal's that religious intolerance appeared. Until then, the Arab amd Turk muslims stressed cultural integration and tolerance.
India today contains the world's second largest Shiite population second only to Iran 28607. jexster - 10/28/2006 8:02:27 PM 2:256 There is no compulsion in religion, for the right way is clearly from the wrong way. Whoever therefore rejects the forces of evil and believes in God, he has taken hold of a support most unfailing, which shall never give way, for God is All Hearing and Knowing. 28608. concerned - 10/29/2006 3:38:05 PM With all due respect, jexster, wrt Islam that's bullshit. For instance, as well as being the most prescriptive and limiting major religion on earth, Islam as practiced generally prescribes the death penalty for apostasy (leaving Islam) for whatever reason. From Wikipedia:
The Hadith (the body of quotes attributed to Muhammad and claimed eyewitnesses' accounts of Muhammad's life and deeds) includes statements that Muslim scholars such as Sheikh Muhammed Salih Al-Munajjid see as supporting the death penalty for apostasy. [2] Only those from Sahih Bukhari, which are considered reliable by most Muslims generally are given below:
"Allah's Apostle said, The blood of a Muslim, who confesses that none has the right to be worshipped but Allah and that I am His Apostle, cannot be shed except in three cases: In Qisas for murder, a married person who commits illegal sexual intercourse and the one who reverts from Islam (apostate) and leaves the Muslims." 9:83:17
Narrated 'Ikrima: 'Ali burnt some people and this news reached ibn 'Abbas, who said, "Had I been in his place I would not have burnt them, as the Prophet said, 'Don't punish (anybody) with Allah's Punishment.' No doubt, I would have killed them, for the Prophet said, 'If somebody (a Muslim) discards his religion, kill him.'" 4:52:260
The legal regulation concerning the male and the female who reverts from Islam (apostates). Ibn 'Umar, Az-Zuhri and Ibrahim said, "A female apostate (who reverts from Islam), should be killed. And the obliging of the reverters from Islam (apostates) to repent. Allah said: — 'How shall Allah guide a people who disbelieved after their belief and (after) they bore witness that the Apostle (Muhammad) was true, and that Clear Signs had come unto them? And Allah does not guide the wrong-doing people. As for such the reward is that on them (rests) the curse of Allah, the Angels, and of all mankind. They will abide there-in (Hell). Neither will their torment be lightened nor it will be postponed (for a while). Except for those that repent after that and make amends. Verily Allah is Oft-Forgiving, Most Merciful. Surely those who disbelieved after their belief, and go on adding to their defiance of faith, never will their repentance be accepted, and they are those who have gone astray.' (Sura 3:86-90) Bukhari Volume 9, Book 84, Chapter 2, p. 42-43.
57. Narrated 'Ikrima: Some Zanadiqa (atheists) were brought to 'Ali and he burnt them. The news of this event, reached Ibn 'Abbas who said, "If I had been in his place, I would not have burnt them, as Allah's Apostle forbade it, saying, 'Do not punish anybody with Allah's punishment (fire).' I would have killed them according to the statement of Allah's Apostle, 'Whoever changed his Islamic religion, then kill him.'" 9:84:57
58. Narrated Abu Burda: Abu Musa said, "I came to the Prophet along with two men (from the tribe) of Ash'ariyin, one on my right and the other on my left, while Allah's Apostle was brushing his teeth (with a Siwak), and both men asked him for some employment. The Prophet said, 'O Abu Musa (O 'Abdullah bin Qais!).' I said, 'By Him Who sent you with the Truth, these two men did not tell me what was in their hearts and I did not feel (realize) that they were seeking employment.' As if I were looking now at his Siwak being drawn to a corner under his lips, and he said, 'We never (or, we do not) appoint for our affairs anyone who seeks to be employed. But O Abu Musa! (or 'Abdullah bin Qais!) Go to Yemen.'" The Prophet then sent Mu'adh bin Jabal after him and when Mu'adh reached him, he spread out a cushion for him and requested him to get down (and sit on the cushion). Behold: There was a fettered man beside Abu Musa. Mu'adh asked, "Who is this (man)?" Abu Muisa said, "He was a Jew and became a Muslim and then reverted back to Judaism." Then Abu Musa requested Mu'adh to sit down but Mu'adh said, "I will not sit down till he has been killed. This is the judgment of Allah and His Apostle (for such cases) and repeated it thrice. Then Abu Musa ordered that the man be killed, and he was killed. Abu Musa added, "Then we discussed the night prayers and one of us said, 'I pray and sleep, and I hope that Allah will reward me for my sleep as well as for my prayers.'" 9:84:58 28609. concerned - 10/29/2006 3:50:26 PM Islamic Apostasy - so much more than just converting from Islam:
What constitutes apostasy in Islam
Regarding monotheism and polytheism:
1) public declaration or conduct that denies Islam, its beliefs, symbols or its principal actors such as statements as "I believe in gods other than Allah", or "God has a material form".
Worshipping an idol.
2)Denying the existence of God (atheism).
Saying the world has always existed from eternity, in such a way that it denies the existence of God as a creator.
3)Saying that the world is everlasting and without end, in such a way that it could be interpreted as a denial of resurrection.
4)Believing in reincarnation into this world, in such a way that it could be interpreted as a denial of resurrection.
Regarding prophethood of Muhammad:
1)Rejecting Muhammad's claim to be a prophet, or denying the concept of prophethood.
2)Implying that one can become a prophet through spiritual exercise, since that would imply the possibility of a prophet after Muhammad.
3)Saying that there were prophets after Muhammad.
4)Cursing Muhammad.
5)Questioning the perfection of Muhammad's knowledge or defaming his character, morals, virtues, or faith.
Regarding beliefs:
1)Any clearly blasphemous action, such as burning the Qur'an out of contempt, and every manner of soiling it out of contempt or hatred. The same may also apply to the Hadiths books.
2)Contradicting the positions that are upheld by a consensus (ijma) of Muslim scholars (ulema), such as saying that prayers or fasting are not obligatory, or that the prohibition of adultery does not have to be followed. Not following these doctrines does not make one an apostate, but saying they need not be followed does.
In Islamic society apostasy must be determined by the testimony of two adult Muslim witnesses, in respectable standing, whose accounts agree. Also, any death penalty case has to be determined by the testimony of four adult Muslim witnesses, in respectable standing, whose accounts agree, for the execution to occur.
This also illustrates why separation of state and religion is unacceptable to most Muslims - the arm of the law is required to enforce among sane humans Islamic flat-earth religious beliefs and behavior.
28610. concerned - 10/29/2006 3:53:39 PM Islamic Apostasy - so much more than just converting from Islam:
What constitutes apostasy in Islam
Regarding monotheism and polytheism:
1) public declaration or conduct that denies Islam, its beliefs, symbols or its principal actors such as statements as "I believe in gods other than Allah", or "God has a material form".
Worshipping an idol.
2)Denying the existence of God (atheism).
Saying the world has always existed from eternity, in such a way that it denies the existence of God as a creator.
3)Saying that the world is everlasting and without end, in such a way that it could be interpreted as a denial of resurrection.
4)Believing in reincarnation into this world, in such a way that it could be interpreted as a denial of resurrection.
Regarding prophethood of Muhammad:
1)Rejecting Muhammad's claim to be a prophet, or denying the concept of prophethood.
2)Implying that one can become a prophet through spiritual exercise, since that would imply the possibility of a prophet after Muhammad.
3)Saying that there were prophets after Muhammad.
4)Cursing Muhammad.
5)Questioning the perfection of Muhammad's knowledge or defaming his character, morals, virtues, or faith.
Regarding beliefs:
1)Any clearly blasphemous action, such as burning the Qur'an out of contempt, and every manner of soiling it out of contempt or hatred. The same may also apply to the Hadiths books.
2)Contradicting the positions that are upheld by a consensus (ijma) of Muslim scholars (ulema), such as saying that prayers or fasting are not obligatory, or that the prohibition of adultery does not have to be followed. Not following these doctrines does not make one an apostate, but saying they need not be followed does.
In Islamic society apostasy must be determined by the testimony of two adult Muslim witnesses, in respectable standing, whose accounts agree. Also, any death penalty case has to be determined by the testimony of four adult Muslim witnesses, in respectable standing, whose accounts agree, for the execution to occur.
This also illustrates why separation of state and religion is unacceptable to most Muslims - the arm of the law is required to enforce among sane humans Islamic flat-earth religious beliefs and behavior.
28611. concerned - 10/29/2006 3:54:53 PM Islamic Apostasy - much more than converting from Islam:
What constitutes apostasy in Islam
Regarding monotheism and polytheism:
A public declaration or conduct that denies Islam, its beliefs, symbols or its principal actors such as statements as "I believe in gods other than Allah", or "God has a material form".
Worshipping an idol.
Denying the existence of God (atheism).
Saying the world has always existed from eternity, in such a way that it denies the existence of God as a creator.
Saying that the world is everlasting and without end, in such a way that it could be interpreted as a denial of resurrection.
Believing in reincarnation into this world, in such a way that it could be interpreted as a denial of resurrection.
Regarding prophethood of Muhammad:
Rejecting Muhammad's claim to be a prophet, or denying the concept of prophethood.
Implying that one can become a prophet through spiritual exercise, since that would imply the possibility of a prophet after Muhammad.
Saying that there were prophets after Muhammad.
Cursing Muhammad.
Questioning the perfection of Muhammad's knowledge or defaming his character, morals, virtues, or faith.
Regarding beliefs:
Any clearly blasphemous action, such as burning the Qur'an out of contempt, and every manner of soiling it out of contempt or hatred. The same may also apply to the Hadiths books.
Contradicting the positions that are upheld by a consensus (ijma) of Muslim scholars (ulema), such as saying that prayers or fasting are not obligatory, or that the prohibition of adultery does not have to be followed. Not following these doctrines does not make one an apostate, but saying they need not be followed does.
In Islamic society apostasy must be determined by the testimony of two adult Muslim witnesses, in respectable standing, whose accounts agree. Also, any death penalty case has to be determined by the testimony of four adult Muslim witnesses, in respectable standing, whose accounts agree, for the execution to occur.
This also illustrates why separation of state and religion is unacceptable to most Muslims - the arm of the law is required to enforce among sane humans Islamic flat-earth religious beliefs and behavior.
28612. concerned - 10/29/2006 4:07:13 PM Sorry about repeat posts -I'm having a lot of trouble posting to the Mote from home for some reason. Btw, 'worshipping an idol' deserves its own number as a form of Islamic apostasy. 28613. alistairConnor - 10/29/2006 7:30:05 PM I take it, Con, that you're going to pass on the Old Testament questions? Message # 28603 28614. poipual - 10/29/2006 10:42:51 PM alister
What is the point of quoting Bible verses from the Old Testament. Now if yu could show me a sigificant number od Christians or Jews who follow those verses, they would have meaning. In some Islamic countries, honor killins happen today, even in Jordan. I am swell aware that it predates Islam. You may take lightly what muslims are saying they intend doing, and I wonder why. 28615. alistairConnor - 10/29/2006 11:01:33 PM Al : I'm taking up Concerned's challenge. He said :
I have a better idea. Let's discuss the " verses of Christianity or Judaism" that exhort the believer to lie to, cheat, defraud and murder those of other faiths.
i.e. he seems to be claiming that Christianity is an inherently "better" religion than Christianity or Judaism, independently of whether or not people actually follow the scriptures or not.
So let's not shift the goalposts just yet. Not until Con has answered. 28616. alistairConnor - 10/29/2006 11:08:39 PM But I do agree, Al, with your implicit view that religion should be left out of politics.
However, there most certainly are political forces in Israel today who openly claim that they have a God-given right to make war on other tribes, just like in the Old Testament, to claim any territories they feel Israel should own. (Since you asked. I can dig up the names of the parties and individuals if you wish. And their government often seems to be following the same policy, though it doesn't generally say so.) 28617. poipual - 10/29/2006 11:16:00 PM I am so happy to hear that it is just an academic exercise between you and concerned. Why do I worry so much about what muslims are about. I'll be 75 in Feb., and evren though the Dr. said I had 20 years to go, he may be wrong, don't you know. But I have 11 grandchildren.
I might favor Christianity and Judism because I don't fear them, nor do I fear Budists or Hindos, or atheists or agnostics.
There is a road to peace with Islam. It is submission. Are we ready for that?
I know many liberals seem to fear Christians 28618. poipual - 10/29/2006 11:37:23 PM I am reading Churchill's "Memoirs of the Second World War". These words struck me:
"Still, if you will not fight for the right when you can easily win...you may come to a time when you will have to fight with all the odds against you and only a precarious chance of survival. There may even be a worse case. You may have to fight when there is no hope of victory, because it is better to perish than live as slaves."
Is Wisnton right today, or is submission the better choice? 28619. alistairConnor - 10/30/2006 12:07:18 AM If you are asking me whether Christians should make religious war against Moslems, then certainly I think they should not.
As for picking wars we can easily win. Are you proposing Afghanistan, or Iraq, as an example? 28620. jexster - 10/30/2006 12:39:02 AM We're losing..no we've lost both.
Allah! Allah! Save us!
Those unto whom We gave the Scripture recognize (this revelation) as they recognize their sons. But lo! a party of them knowingly conceal the truth. al-Qur'an 2:146
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