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28640. concerned - 10/31/2006 12:34:08 AM AC - however much contempt you may have for Jewish religious beliefs and attitudes keep in mind that they are the polar opposites of the more militant Muslims wrt proselytization. 28641. concerned - 10/31/2006 12:56:57 AM Btw, that 'fish' in the barrel you thought you were shooting - that was your foot.
I don't know how you can think pointing to individual instances of questionable behavior over 3000 years ago in the history of the Jews proves anything in today's world, because every thing you have presented so far has not much bearing on Jewish and none at all on Christian attitudes towards those of other faiths today, and none of it is at all prescriptive in the sense that the relevant passages in the Kor(a)n and Hadiths are. 28642. alistairConnor - 10/31/2006 1:02:31 AM You set the goalposts, Concerned.
You didn't think I could find "verses of Christianity or Judaism that exhort the believer to lie to, cheat, defraud and murder those of other faiths."
Now you want to move them.
Am I surprised? 28643. concerned - 10/31/2006 1:12:08 AM You didn't find any, in fact, that exhort the believer to lie to, cheat, defraud and murder those of other faiths.
Be so good as to note the present tense, please. That means now, not 1500 years ago. Not 3000 years ago. Now. 28644. concerned - 10/31/2006 1:13:45 AM How's your foot feeling with all those holes in it, AC? 28645. concerned - 10/31/2006 1:17:42 AM I have to concede that you have definitely found examples where the Hebrews have mistreated others in such ways in the past. My apologies if you misunderstood what I was asking. 28646. Jenerator - 10/31/2006 2:13:05 AM Jexster,
28624. jexster - 10/30/2006 4:41:33 AM
No he doesn't Jen...that's a lie.
No - *who* doesn't? Doesn't what?
I am not going to keep posting the same material that proves it
For as many sites as you link, I can find equal number that prove what I saw. So....?
I have done it several times now
I have provided links as well.
The issue (in a nutshell) is that you are regurgitating bottom feeder swill that right wing Jews have passed off as authentic muslim scholarship
Who are these Jewish sources that I have been sourcing and who are these operatives I have been talking to? Are the Muslims I know all covert Jewish spies?
You are republishing lies and bigotry
What lies?? The principle of nasikh exists as do the bloody verses. You're mental, jexster.
28647. jexster - 10/31/2006 2:20:04 AM That spew, that nonsense, that bile is of Kosher origin you moron 28648. jexster - 10/31/2006 2:20:28 AM God would like to thank you for your belief and patronage. In order to serve your needs, God asks that your take a few moments to answer the following questions. There is no need to disclose your name or address, unless you prefer a direct response by mail.
1. How did you find out about God?
__ Newspaper __ Other Book
__ Television __ Divine Inspiration
__ Website __ Near Death Experience
__ Bible __ Word of mouth
__ Torah __ Other (specify):_________
2. Are you currently using any other source of inspiration in addition to God? Please check all that apply.
__ Tarot __ Lottery
__ Horoscope __ Television
__ Fortune Cookie __ Ann Landers
__ Self-help Book __ Sex
__ Biorhythms __ Alcohol/drugs
__ Mantras __“I’m feeling lucky” Google search
__ Insurance Policy __ Other:______________
3. God employs a limited degree of Divine Intervention to preserve the balanced level of felt presence and blind faith. Which would your prefer (circle one).
a. More Divine Intervention
b. Less Divine Intervention
c. Current level of Divine Intervention is just right
d. Don’t know
4. God also attempts to maintain a balanced level of disasters and miracles. Please rate on a scale of 1–5 his handling of the following
(1= unsatisfactory, 5= excellent)
a. Disasters (flood, famine
earthquakes, war) 1 2 3 4 5
b. Miracles (rescues, spontaneous
remissions, sports upsets) 1 2 3 4 5
5. Do you have any additional comments or suggestions for improving the quality of God’s services?
28649. Jenerator - 10/31/2006 2:26:49 AM And again ..the proof is not only in Muslim scripture but in praxis
Proof that there is a violent aspect to Islam? I don't disagree! Tell me about the praxis of today
...which when contrasted with Christain history of Jewish and Muslim persecutions, admits of no dispute either
The Christians and Jews aren't strapping bombs onto our pregnant mothers and blowing themselves up. They aren't disguising themselves as civilians and walking into markets with other Christians and Jews and killing all of them, either.
Of course not.
28650. Jenerator - 10/31/2006 2:29:10 AM Nasikh
and more nasikh 28651. Jenerator - 10/31/2006 2:40:27 AM The biggest lie about Koran ever told
Today's Islamic scholars have a pleasure in showing the "NO COMPULSION IN RELIGION VERSE" (Koran 2:256). But these Islamic scholars who accuse the critics of using koranic verses out of context must check out the context of this verse. This is exactly what we will do:
But before we go into this we have to see when and why a verse was said by Muhammad (1) and does he contradict his earlier verses in that process (2)? In that case what happens (3)?
To know why and when Muhammad said some thing as a revelation (1) we need to make use of the chronology of the koranic verses obtained from the Hadiths and Siras, and the tafsir will also help us in this issue. Though there is no standard and accepted chronology of the Koran.
The Egyptian standard edition gives the following chronological order of the Suras, with the verses said to date from a different period given in parentheses:
XCVI, LXVIII (17-33, 48-50 Med.), LXXIII (10 f., 20 Med.), LXXIV, I, CXI, LXXXI, LXXXVII, XCII, LXXXIX, XCIII, XCIV, CIII, C, CVIII, CII, CVII, CIX, CV, CXIII, CXIV, CXII, LIII, LXXX, XCVII, XCI, LXXXV, CVI, CI, LXXV, XCV, CIV, LXXVII (48 Med.), L (38 Med.), XC, LXXXVI, LIV (54-6 Med.), XXXVIII, VII (163-70 Med.), LXXII, XXXVI (45 Med.), XXV (68-70 Med.), XXXV, XIX (58, 71 Med.), XX
(130 f. Med.), LVI (71 f. Med.), XXVI (197, 224-7 Med.),XXVII, XXVIII (52-5 Med., 85 during Hijrah), XVII (26, 32 f., 57, 73-80 Med.), X (40, 94-6 Med.), XI (12, 17, 114 Med.), XII (1-3, 7 Med.), XV, VI (20, 23, 91,114, 141, 151-3 Med.), XXXVII, XXXI (27-9 Med.), XXXIV (6 Med.), XXXIX (52-4 Med.), XL (56 f. Med.), XLI, XLII (23-5, 27 Med.), XLIII (54 Med.), XLIV, XLV (14 Med.), XLVI (10, 15, 35 Med.), LI, LXXXVIII,XVIII (28, 83-101 Med.), XVI (126-8 Med.), LXXI, XIV (28 f. Med.), XXI, XXIII, XXXII (16-20 Med.), LII, LXVII, LXIX, LXX, LXXVIII, LXXIX, LXXXII, LXXXIV, XXX (17 Med.), XXIX (1-11 Med.), LXXXIII Hijrah, II (281 later), VIII (30-6 Mec.), III, XXXIII, LX, IV, XCIX, LVII, XLVII (13 during Hijrah), XIII, LV, LXXVI, LXV, XCVIII, LIX, XXIV, XXII, LXIII, LVIII, XLIX, LXVI, LXIV, LXI, LXII, XLVIII, V, IX (128 f. Mec.), CX.
28652. Jenerator - 10/31/2006 2:41:08 AM Jex,
The revered work "al-Nasikh wal-Mansukh" (The Abrogator and the Abrogated) deals in great detail with many subject matters addressed in the Qur'an wherein there appears to be some conflict or contradiction. The book goes through every sura (chapter), pointing out in full detail every verse which has been canceled, and the verse(s) which replace it. The author notes that out of 114 suras, there are only 43 which were not affected by this concept. If there no contradiction why was such a branch of science ever needed?
Answer that for me. 28653. Jenerator - 10/31/2006 2:46:50 AM The Catholic Church of course rejects Jen's perverse understanding of Islam and Christianity, calling for a dialogue of mutual respect and understanding - something which Jen is manifestly incapable.
You're retarded. Everything I have said is legitimate. Nasikh is an Islamic concept and I bet that Ratzinger knows about it and is at least willing to admit it in private, unlike you.
That's because she's a heretic.
She'd have been burned at the stake 500 years ago.
Riiiiiiiiiiiight! What would they have done with you, Jex? 28654. jexster - 10/31/2006 3:16:02 AM Jen you can spew all that Jewish sewer sludge all you want to but it doesn't amount to a hill of shit.
The verse "No compulsion in religion" is NOT - unlike yours - taken out of context. It is a MEDINAN text and is self-explanatory, ie it cannot be explained away.
I have demonstrated how you have taken verses out of context and have demonstrated that your polluted knowledge of Islam is against the teachings of the Catholic Church and Islam. I have shown you where they come from. 28655. jexster - 10/31/2006 3:17:29 AM The "revered work"
That phrase comes from King's Missions
28656. jexster - 10/31/2006 3:26:57 AM Against a clear teaching of Islam, Jen offers her "satanic verses" - Jewish sponsored hate propaganda fed through the King's Mission, to Jen, to the Mote
This is how they try to argue their way out of the No Compulsion mandate..have posted this before
You won't find it in "King's Mission" nor will you find any of that horsewaste in Catholic or Anglican dialogues with Islam
>No compulsion in religion
Quran and Hadith on Religious Persecution
All of which would be rather funny were it not for the horrid history of religious persecution in Christianity, a history unmatched in Islam
28657. jexster - 10/31/2006 3:35:29 AM 3. The Church regards with esteem also the Moslems. They adore the one God, living and subsisting in Himself; merciful and all- powerful, the Creator of heaven and earth,(5) who has spoken to men; they take pains to submit wholeheartedly to even His inscrutable decrees, just as Abraham, with whom the faith of Islam takes pleasure in linking itself, submitted to God. Though they do not acknowledge Jesus as God, they revere Him as a prophet. They also honor Mary, His virgin Mother; at times they even call on her with devotion. In addition, they await the day of judgment when God will render their deserts to all those who have been raised up from the dead. Finally, they value the moral life and worship God especially through prayer, almsgiving and fasting.
Since in the course of centuries not a few quarrels and hostilities have arisen between Christians and Moslems, this sacred synod urges all to forget the past and to work sincerely for mutual understanding and to preserve as well as to promote together for the benefit of all mankind social justice and moral welfare, as well as peace and freedom.
DECLARATION ON
THE RELATION OF THE CHURCH TO NON-CHRISTIAN RELIGIONS
NOSTRA AETATE
28658. jexster - 10/31/2006 3:39:46 AM Comunicato Stampa del Pontificio Consiglio per il Dialogo Interreligioso
[Continuing collaboration existing between them, the World Islamic Call Society (Tripoli, Libya) and the Pontifical Council for Interreligious Dialogue (Vatican City) organized jointly a colloquium on Islamic Da'wah (Call to Islam) and Christian Mission in the Next Century]
Looking forward to the future, the participants emphasized that in continuing to live, witness and share their faith, care must be taken to respect human dignity. This entails respect for the religion of the other when speaking and writing about it; it also means freedom of conscience enshrined in the right to religious liberty.
Christianity and Islam agree that no compulsion should be used on persons or societies in the name of religion. Nor should advantage be taken of occasions of economic deprivation to exercise undue influence. On the contrary, injustice and exploitation should be fought by Muslims and Christians together and by all people of good will. Rather than carrying out Da'wah and Mission in the next century in a spirit of competition - as sometimes happened in the past - they should practise it in a spirit of collaboration, and as a service to humankind.
The Pontifical Council for Interreligious Dialogue and the World Islamic Call Society agreed also to continue on their part to collaborate and to invite others to join them in promoting better understanding between Christians and Muslims for the good of all.
28659. jexster - 10/31/2006 3:44:00 AM John L. Esposito - Georgetown University
Washington, D.C. - The primary purpose and message of Benedict XVI's address in Regensburg, Germany was not about Islam, referred to in only four paragraphs of his eight-page lecture. And yet, this papal address to a university audience turned into an occasion for an international protest across the Muslim world. Morocco withdrew its ambassador to the Vatican, heads of state from Turkey to Indonesia voiced criticism, the Sheikh of Al-Azhar commented on the Pope's ignorance of Islam, and leaders of Muslim organisations called for a public apology. The incident has also triggered public demonstrations, the burning of the Pope in effigy in Pakistan and acts of violence against both Christians and churches.
The Pope clearly stated that his primary purpose was to discuss the issue of "faith and reason". He did so reacting and responding to a major concern of his, the excesses of secularisation: the triumph of secularism and increased weakness of Christianity and the Roman Catholic Church in his homeland, Germany, and in Europe in general, and attempts to exclude religion from the realm of reason.
Although the Vatican stated that the Pope did not intend to offend, his remarks did in fact upset many Muslims. Particularly offensive to Muslims was his citation of a fourteenth century Byzantine emperor's remarks about the Prophet Muhammad: "Show me just what Muhammad brought that was new, and there you will find things only evil and inhuman, such as his command to spread by the sword the faith he preached."
Now, Muhammad is revered in Islam as the final Prophet of God and the model of Muslim life. Moreover, the remark that he commanded the spread of Islam by the sword is simply inaccurate, for what the Qur'an and Muhammad did was recognise the right to defend Islam and the Muslim community by fighting those Meccans who threatened and attacked Muslims.
Equally problematic is the Pope's statement that the Qur'anic passage, "There is no compulsion in religion" (Qur'an 2:256) was revealed in the early years of Muhammad's prophethood in Mecca, a period "when Mohammed was still powerless and under [threat]" but was overtaken later when he ruled Medina by "instructions, developed later and recorded in the Koran [Qur'an], concerning holy war."
Both these statements are incorrect. Qur'an 2:256 is not an early Meccan verse but is itself from the later Medinan period and the Qur'an does not equate jihad with holy war. This interpretation of jihad developed years later after Muhammad's death when it came to be used by rulers (caliphs) to justify their wars of imperial expansion and rule in the name of Islam.
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