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28717. jexster - 11/1/2006 1:09:50 AM Dr. Tariq Ramadan with A radical idea:
How Muslims can be European, too
Pretty sorry when you think about it. Slandering the second largest religion on the planet, a religion with 1500 years of tradition and deep belief, and all because some people are so insecure in their own spirituality and sense of self that they cannot survive without an "other" to hate 28718. concerned - 11/1/2006 1:33:18 AM Give me a break with your precious Islam.
Lefties love to slander Christianity - you slander Jews every chance you get, jexster. 28719. concerned - 11/1/2006 1:35:40 AM So what, jexster? Nazis also had 'deep belief' and god knows how much 'Aryan tradition'. That, and their disregard for human rights which they shared with Muslims, is what made them so bad for the world. 28720. jexster - 11/1/2006 1:49:14 AM That's right...and you have a deep belief in George W. Bush 28721. jexster - 11/1/2006 1:49:48 AM The Islamists are anarchists not fascists
You are fascist
They are anarchists. 28722. concerned - 11/1/2006 4:13:23 AM I'm less a fascist than you, by definition. You clearly don't know what a fascist is. Why don't you go and make friends with some of your Islamofascist heroes? 28723. concerned - 11/1/2006 4:14:39 AM Anarchists are supremely impractical people. That cannot be said of those who embrace fundamentalist Islamofascism. 28724. concerned - 11/1/2006 4:16:03 AM Fascism is a variant of socialism, and nobody would call me a socialist. However, many would call jexster a socialist who is in bed with Islamofascists. 28725. concerned - 11/1/2006 4:17:09 AM I'd defend any religious belief even an atheist against racist slurs
Must be a titanic internal struggle then.
28726. jexster - 11/1/2006 4:18:24 AM No
Fascism is a militaristic xenophobic mass movement of big capital aka corporatism, aka crony capitalism
Krupp
AG Farben
Halliburton
I am not calling you a fascist, but tou are more of a fascist than Osama is that's for damn sure
He is an anarchist 28727. jexster - 11/1/2006 4:19:26 AM Boner Patrol
I don't "slander Christianity" - That's a lie
I am a practicing Catholic Christian
You aren't 28728. jexster - 11/1/2006 4:20:07 AM 
28729. jexster - 11/1/2006 4:29:04 AM Let's try and move this back on topic - Christain, Jewish, Muslim Scriptures
Qu'ran
003.045
YUSUFALI: Behold! the angels said: "O Mary! Allah giveth thee glad tidings of a Word from Him: his name will be Christ Jesus, the son of Mary, held in honour in this world and the Hereafter and of (the company of) those nearest to Allah;
PICKTHAL: (And remember) when the angels said: O Mary! Lo! Allah giveth thee glad tidings of a word from him, whose name is the Messiah, Jesus, son of Mary, illustrious in the world and the Hereafter, and one of those brought near (unto Allah).
SHAKIR: When the angels said: O Marium, surely Allah gives you good news with a Word from Him (of one) whose name is the '. Messiah, Isa son of Marium, worthy of regard in this world and the hereafter and of those who are made near (to Allah).
003.046
YUSUFALI: "He shall speak to the people in childhood and in maturity. And he shall be (of the company) of the righteous."
PICKTHAL: He will speak unto mankind in his cradle and in his manhood, and he is of the righteous.
SHAKIR: And he shall speak to the people when in the cradle and when of old age, and (he shall be) one of the good ones.
003.047
YUSUFALI: She said: "O my Lord! How shall I have a son when no man hath touched me?" He said: "Even so: Allah createth what He willeth: When He hath decreed a plan, He but saith to it, 'Be,' and it is!
PICKTHAL: She said: My Lord! How can I have a child when no mortal hath touched me? He said: So (it will be). Allah createth what He will. If He decreeth a thing, He saith unto it only: Be! and it is.
SHAKIR: She said: My Lord! when shall there be a son (born) to I me, and man has not touched me? He said: Even so, Allah creates what He pleases; when He has decreed a matter, He only says to it, Be, and it is.
003.048
YUSUFALI: "And Allah will teach him the Book and Wisdom, the Law and the Gospel,
PICKTHAL: And He will teach him the Scripture and wisdom, and the Torah and the Gospel,
SHAKIR: And He will teach him the Book and the wisdom and the Tavrat and the Injeel.
Our Lady of Perpetual Help28730. concerned - 11/1/2006 4:31:59 AM I am not calling you a fascist, but tou are more of a fascist than Osama is that's for damn sure
You appear not to know anything about Islamic fundamentalism OR fascism. Osama is/was a prime example of an Islamofascist.
Deal with it. 28731. jexster - 11/1/2006 4:34:27 AM
No he isn't for the reasons previously stated. He is an anarchist not a fascist by any definition.
"Deal with it"?
I have done so dozens of times already, but I am delighted that you make the distinction betwen "islamic fundamentalism" and Islam
That's progress. You're dealing with it!
28732. jexster - 11/1/2006 4:37:13 AM The Gospel According to Luke:
1:
26 In the sixth month the angel Gabriel was sent by God to a town in Galilee called Nazareth, 27to a virgin engaged to a man whose name was Joseph, of the house of David. The virgin’s name was Mary. 28And he came to her and said, ‘Greetings, favoured one! The Lord is with you.’* 29But she was much perplexed by his words and pondered what sort of greeting this might be. 30The angel said to her, ‘Do not be afraid, Mary, for you have found favour with God. 31And now, you will conceive in your womb and bear a son, and you will name him Jesus. 32He will be great, and will be called the Son of the Most High, and the Lord God will give to him the throne of his ancestor David. 33He will reign over the house of Jacob for ever, and of his kingdom there will be no end.’ 34Mary said to the angel, ‘How can this be, since I am a virgin?’* 35The angel said to her, ‘The Holy Spirit will come upon you, and the power of the Most High will overshadow you; therefore the child to be born* will be holy; he will be called Son of God. 36And now, your relative Elizabeth in her old age has also conceived a son; and this is the sixth month for her who was said to be barren. 37For nothing will be impossible with God.’ 38Then Mary said, ‘Here am I, the servant of the Lord; let it be with me according to your word.’ Then the angel departed from her. 28733. Jenerator - 11/2/2006 2:10:18 PM Thanks for the birth narrative. What's your point? 28734. jexster - 11/2/2006 5:23:58 PM My point is simple.
This is not a "birth" narrrative. It is for Christians a fundamental salvific event and for Muslims too.
This isn't the "birth narrative" this is the Annunciation, the first sacred mystery of the Incarnation of God.
Both scriptures - even better the Qu'ran - attempt to capture the inexpressible salvific significance of the Virgin's fiat.
Both texts are indistinguishable their understanding of the God and his work of salvation in the world.
These and other verses of the Quran suggest several points of ulimate, eternal import to Christian...
And you ask "What is the point?"
28735. jexster - 11/2/2006 5:39:17 PM While the Qu'ran holds a high Christology and Marian doctrine, it ain't much on the Trinity. Understandable perhaps for Mohammed's struggle was against pagan pantheism an idolators. One in three, Three in One - One God Indivisible - Trinitarian dogma has tried the best preachers and theological minds for 1700 years or so. If Gabriel dictated God's Word verbatim to Mohammed, he spoke to an Arab caught up in his own special circumstances
The Quran Narrates Mary's Birth
35. (Remember) when the wife of 'Imrân (Mary's mother) said, "O' my Lord! I vow to You that which is in my womb to be dedicated for Your service, (free from all worldly work; to serve Your Place of worship) so accept this from me. Verily, You are the All-Hearing, the All-Knowing."
36. Then when she delivered her (Mary), she said, "O' my Lord! I have delivered a female child," - and Allah knew better what she had delivered, - "And the male is not like the female (in temple serving), and I have named her Mary, and I seek refuge for her with You (Allah) and for her offspring from Satan, the outcast."
37. So her Lord (Allah) accepted her (Mary) with a goodly acceptance. He caused her to grow in a good manner and placed her under the care of Zakariyâ (Zachariya). Every time he entered Al-Mihrâb (her praying room) to (visit) her, he found her supplied with sustenance. He said, "O' Mary! From where have you gotten this?" She said, "This is from Allah. Verily, Allah provides sustenance to whom He wills, without limit."
(3:35-37)
Her Upbringing and the Announcement of Jesus' Birth
42. And (remember) when the angels said, "O' Mary! Verily, Allah has chosen you, purified you (from polytheism and disbelief), and chosen you above the women of the universe."
43. "O' Mary! Submit yourself in obedience to your Lord (Allah, by worshipping none but Him Alone) and prostrate yourself, and bow down along with those who bow down."
44. This is a part of the news of the unseen with which We inspire you (O' Muhammad). You were not with them, when they cast lots with their pens as to which of them should be charged with the care of Mary; nor were you with them when they disputed.
45. (Remember) when the angels said, "O' Mary! Verily, Allah gives you the glad tidings of a Word ["Be!" - and Jesus was] from Him, his name will be the Messiah Jesus, the son of Mary, held in honor in this world and in the Hereafter, and will be one of those who are near to Allah."
46. "He will speak to the people in the cradle and in extreme old-age( i.e. when he returns to this world), and he will be one of the righteous."
47. She said, "O' my Lord! How shall I have a son when no man has touched me?" He said, "So (it will be) for Allah creates what He wills. When He has decreed something, He says to it only, "Be!" and it is.
(3:42-47)
16. And mention in the Book (the Quran, O' Muhammad, the story of) Mary, when she withdrew from her family to a secluded place facing East.
17. She placed a screen (to screen herself) from them; then We sent to her Our Spirit (Angel Gabriel), and he appeared before her in the form of a man in all respects.
18. She said, "Verily! I seek refuge with the Most Beneficent (Allah) from you, if you do fear Allah."
19. (The Angel) said, "I am only a Messenger from your Lord, (to announce) to you the gift of a righteous son."
20. She said, "How can I have a son, when no man has touched me, nor am I unchaste?"
21. He said, "So (it will be), your Lord said, 'That is easy for Me (Allah): And (We want) to appoint him as a sign to mankind and a Mercy from Us (Allah), and it is a matter (already) decreed, (by Allah).' "
(19:16-21)
28736. jexster - 11/2/2006 5:40:23 PM Jesus' Birth
22. So she conceived him, and she withdrew with him to a far place (i.e. Bethlehem Valley approx. 4-6 miles from Jerusalem).
23. And the pains of childbirth drove her to the trunk of a date-palm. She said, "Would that I had died before this, and had been forgotten and out of sight!"
24. Then he cried unto her from below her, saying, "Grieve not! Your Lord has provided a stream of water under you."
25. "And shake the trunk of the date-palm towards you, it will let to fall upon you fresh ripe dates."
26. "So eat and drink and be glad, and if you see any human being, say: 'Verily! I have vowed a fast unto the Most Beneficent (Allah) so, this day, I shall not speak to any human.'"
27. Then she brought him (the baby) to her people, carrying him. They said, "O' Mary! Indeed you have brought a thing 'Fariya' (an unheard, mighty thing)."
28. "O' sister (i.e. the like) of Aaron [a pious man at the time of Mary (not the brother of Moses)]! Your father was not a man who used to commit adultery, nor was your mother an unchaste woman."
29. Then she pointed to him. They said: "How can we talk to one who is a child in the cradle? "
30. "He (Jesus) said: Verily! I am a servant of Allah, He has given me the Scripture and made me a Prophet;"
31. "And He has made me blessed wheresoever I be, and has enjoined on me prayer, and charity, as long as I live."
32. "And (made me) dutiful to my mother, and did not make me arrogant, unblest.
33. "And peace be upon me the day I was born, and the day I die, and the day I shall be raised alive!"
34. Such is Jesus, son of Mary. (it is) a statement of truth, about which they doubt (or dispute).
35. It befits not (the Majesty of) Allah that He should beget a son. Glorified (and Exalted be He above all that they associate with Him). When He decrees a thing, He only says to it, "Be!" and it is.
36. (Jesus) said: "And verily Allah is my Lord and your Lord. So worship Him (Alone). That is the Straight Path (Allah's Religion of Islamic Monotheism which He did ordain for all of His Prophets)."
37. Then the sects differed [i.e. the Christians about Jesus] so woe unto the disbelievers [those who gave false witness by saying that Jesus is the son of Allah] from the meeting of a Great Day.
38. How clearly will they (polytheists and disbelievers in the Oneness of Allah) see and hear, the Day when they will appear before Us! But the Zalimûn (polytheists and wrong-doers) today are in plain error.
39. And warn them (O' Muhammad ) of the Day of grief and regrets, when the case has been decided, while (now) they are in a state of carelessness, and they believe not.
40. Verily! We will inherit the earth and whatsoever is upon it. And to Us they shall all be returned.
(19:22-40)
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