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29015. David Ehrenstein - 2/26/2008 3:33:13 PM This is why conventionl politics will never offer anything of value to anyone who isn't corporate. It's held hostage to religion. 29016. anomie - 2/26/2008 6:15:12 PM Concerned, I don't defend Islam or excuse its excesses. I'm just not so sure it surpasses those of Christianity. You on the other hand have a distinct bias that seems to overlook long periods of Christian dominance, invasions, inquisition periods. Limiting the discussion to agreed-upon periods of history, I'm sure we could come to a general agreement. Taken as a whole, however, Christianity certainly has a longer history than Islam and as many incidents that could be considered as retrograde or proselytizing. So yes, to make any claims about which religion is "most" anything is short sighted.
So no, while I don't defend Islam, I do point out that it's hypocritical of Christians to criticize mainstream Muslims merely because of the wave of fanatacism and terror being carried out by some. Christians don't have any moral high ground in doctrine (or historical fact) to stand on.
But folks like you can not accept the fact that we all abhor terrorism and violence and intolerance unless we wave the flag and carry a bible.
And finally, your response implied things that don't apply to my position. For example, I don't "prefer" Islam. I think pretty much all religion is nonsense.
29017. anomie - 2/26/2008 6:26:56 PM Forced conversions in Iraq: If you'd loosen yuor brain a bit you could see things from a different POV. You don't have to agree with that POV to acknowledge it. Could it be possible that some Muslims see the invading army as a force that will change their religion. What we see as protecting individual rights and enforcing tolerance of others, they see as forcing change in their religion and society.
Look no further than Kansas (or pick your state) for an American analogy. Religious people claim that Secular Humanism is a religion being forced on their kids at school. They claim that to teach kids science and tolerance is forcing religion on them. They claim that prohibitions against using public monies is a violation of free speech.
Religious people can't seem to get a grasp on common sense. And you, Concerned, can't seem to be objective about religious intolerance. 29018. judithathome - 2/26/2008 7:22:29 PM That's why this thread is mostly dead.
Not really. It's "mostly dead" because people are talking about other things. And those other things aren't being interrupted by fanatics claiming we're trying to ignore the subject or saying our education is lacking or that we're just plain stupid. Tactics you and Conn'd seem to prefer as "debate".
29019. anomie - 2/26/2008 7:45:36 PM Jen, you too are blind to your own bias. Your idea of discussing Islam was to focus on extremists imams or Muslim fringe groups, and to point out certain passages of the Koran that tended to support your critique. If you discussed anything else, I missed it.
But now when others pointed to extremist Christian groups, or periods of history, or when Old Testament genocides and absurdities cited...these you describe as cliches and stereotypes.
Try as you might, you can't prove any moral superiority over Islam. In fact, Christians don't even subscribe to a personal morality of any kind. Their God is just no matter what. If you can worship the God who laid the plans for the invasion of Caanan, instructing Joshua to slaughter children, then you can worship just about anything. But then that's all cliche and stereotype to you I suppose. 29020. concerned - 2/26/2008 8:04:02 PM If you can worship the God who laid the plans for the invasion of Caanan, instructing Joshua to slaughter children, then you can worship just about anything. But then that's all cliche and stereotype to you I suppose.
Well, first of all, as I posted, I am an agnostic.
You are hopefully aware that agnosticism is not Christianity in any form.
Secondly, Muslims *do* worship 'that' God, and one who is guilty of much nefarious wrongdoing that the Christian God isn't, besides. 29021. concerned - 2/26/2008 8:16:29 PM Considering that Leftists wish to claim absolution for the 150,000,000 excess deaths that their political philosophy has caused during the 20th Century, simple fairness requires Left Wingers to overlook Christianity's excesses before the middle of the eighteenth century.
IAC, criticism of Christianity that relies on actions taken in its name before the Enlightenment really lack relevance in a discussion of comparative religions today.
I'm sure anomie would agree with this, presuming that he is a reasonable person.
29022. anomie - 2/26/2008 9:09:28 PM Concerned, I applaud yuor agnosticism. I was responding to Jen on the invasion of Canaan.
You are totally whack if you think I absolve leftist of any of their atrocities. I havn't seen anybody here defend Stalin. Where are you getting that premise from?
I am a reasonable person. That's why I don't compare historical and radical Islam with modern mainstream Christianity. Various canvases of history require different brushes. 29023. concerned - 2/26/2008 9:18:16 PM Unfortunately for your viewpoint, there are several fundamentalist Muslim regimes (Afghanistan, Iran, Saudi Arabia) in the world today, but no such thing exists wrt Christianity.
So we have:
1)forced conversion to Islam
2)dhimmitude
3)sharia
4)fundamentalist regimes
5)no human rights
6)widespread poverty
7)human slavery
8)strong anti-intellectual bias
all characteristic of Muslim countries, but not of Christian countries.
You have established exactly zero reasons as to why Islam is not more objectionable than Christianity, while I have listed quite a number of very important and irrefutable reasons why Islam *is* more objectionable than Christianity. 29024. anomie - 2/26/2008 10:01:37 PM All of which may be precisely because of historical lessons-learned and the Western "anti-Christian" watchdog activism that guards against religious interference of all stripes. As Judith daid, we happen to have Christians knocking on our doors, and I might add sniping at our secular freedoms in this country.
I repeat, I don't defend Islam and if we confine our timeline to the present, I will agree that Islam on the whole is much more objectionable from a seclurist POV than is Christianity. But that doesn't mean we can take a watchful eye off Christianity for a moment. Some segments are straining at the bit to get our schools and politics Christianized, and force us all to participate with everything from public money to public reverence.
So by listing a few "facts", you have established very little in comparing the overall merits of the two religions. And we haven't even discussed the hideousness doctrinal issues of each one. 29025. concerned - 2/26/2008 10:23:36 PM Well, ok. I can go along with that. By all means keep a watchful eye on Christianity.
Isn't it strange, though, that the secularists who have 'triumphed' over Christianity in Europe are beginning to admit unequal law (Sharia) to some of their selected citizens. 29026. anomie - 2/26/2008 10:27:22 PM Not only strange, but shameful. I assume you're talking about the Archbishop of Canterbury in the UK. I hope they put a stop to it before it starts. 29027. anomie - 2/26/2008 10:28:10 PM Not to mention dangerous and harmful to the children involved who have little choice in things. 29028. jexster - 3/16/2008 2:25:28 AM
The atheist delusion 29029. jexster - 3/16/2008 2:33:16 AM 29023
a list of lies
Thomas Hussein's ignorance of religions is absymal
But this should surprise no one. After all, he's admitted "agnostic" and so has no place discussing anyone else's faith.
Pathetic..the simpleton pulls his "knowledge" of Islam off of heretic christian hate sites. Allah only knows where his blather about Christianity comes from
what a froot loop
Pope Approves Permanent Muslim Catholic Dialogue 29030. jexster - 3/16/2008 4:03:58 AM Credo
29031. jexster - 3/16/2008 6:10:52 PM It's HOLY WEEK.
Tomas Luis De Victoria haunting and commonly sung at the Veneration of the Cross on Good Friday
Brokeback Mountain - O Vos Omnes
ntiphon:
O vos omnes qui transitis per viam:
attendite et videte si est dolor sicut dolor meus.
Responsory:
O vos omnes qui transitis per viam:
attendite et videte:
* Si est dolor similis sicut dolor meus.
V. Attendite, universi populi, et videte dolorem meum.
* Si est dolor similis sicut dolor meus.
Image:English.png English translation
Antiphon:
O all ye that pass by the way,
attend and see if there be any sorrow like to my sorrow.
Responsory:
O all ye that pass by the way,
attend and see:
* If there be any sorrow like to my sorrow.
V. Attend, all ye people, and see my sorrow:
* If there be any sorrow like to my sorrow.
29032. jexster - 3/16/2008 6:27:51 PM The Reproaches of Good Friday
St. Thomas Episcopal
NyC
Setting adapted from Tomás Luis de Victoria
(c. 1548-1611)
POPULE meus, quid feci tibi? aut in quo contristavi te? Responde mihi. Quia eduxi te de terra
Aegypti, parasti crucem salvatori tuo.
Agios o Theos! Sanctus Deus! Agios ischyros! Sanctus fortis! Agios athanatos,
eleison imas. Sanctus immortalis, miserere nobis.
Quia eduxi te per desertum quadraginta annis, et manna cibavi te, et introduxi
in terram satis optimam: parasti crucem salvatori tuo.
Agios o Theos! Sanctus Deus! Agios ischyros! Sanctus fortis! Agios athanatos,
eleison imas. Sanctus immortalis, miserere nobis.
Quid ultra debui facere tibi, et non feci? Ego quidem plantavi te vineam meam
speciosissimam: et tu facta es mihi nimis amara: aceto namque sitim meam potasti:
et lancea perforasti latus salvatori tuo.
Agios o Theos! Sanctus Deus! Agios ischyros! Sanctus fortis! Agios athanatos,
eleison imas. Sanctus immortalis, miserere nobis.
Popule meus, quid feci tibi? aut in quo contristavi te? Responde mihi. (less)
O my people, what have I done to thee? or wherein have I afflicted thee? Answer me.
V. Because I led thee out of the land of Egypt, thou hast prepared a cross for thy Savior.
The two choirs then sing alternately:
O holy God!
O holy God!
O holy strong One!
O holy strong One!
O holy immortal One, have mercy upon us.
O holy immortal One, have mercy upon us.
Two cantors:
Because I led thee out through the desert forty years: and fed thee with manna, and brought thee into a land exceeding good, thou hast prepared a Cross for thy Savior.....29033. jexster - 3/20/2008 8:24:05 PM Good Friday Liturgy: Crux Fidelis, Vexilla Regis, and Agnus Dei
29034. jexster - 3/23/2008 6:57:47 PM Easter Eve Benediction and Closing Hymn
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