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29139. jexster - 9/22/2008 3:50:06 AM Being the highest of the Redeemed, the Mother of Christ was freed from the bond of Original Sin
She is the second Eve, Jesus the New Adam
It is a doctrine about Jesus and us 29140. Jenerator - 9/22/2008 3:50:09 AM Isaiah 6:3
And they were calling to one another:
"Holy, holy, holy is the LORD Almighty;
the whole earth is full of his glory."
Genesis 3:15 And I will put enmity
between you and the woman,
and between your offspring [a] and hers;
he will crush [b] your head,
and you will strike his heel."
Not seeing where this has anything to do with Mary being sinless... 29141. jexster - 9/22/2008 3:50:27 AM
The Immaculate Conception
490 To become the mother of the Savior, Mary "was enriched by God with gifts appropriate to such a role."132 The angel Gabriel at the moment of the annunciation salutes her as "full of grace".133 In fact, in order for Mary to be able to give the free assent of her faith to the announcement of her vocation, it was necessary that she be wholly borne by God's grace.
491 Through the centuries the Church has become ever more aware that Mary, "full of grace" through God,134 was redeemed from the moment of her conception. That is what the dogma of the Immaculate Conception confesses, as Pope Pius IX proclaimed in 1854:
The most Blessed Virgin Mary was, from the first moment of her conception, by a singular grace and privilege of almighty God and by virtue of the merits of Jesus Christ, Savior of the human race, preserved immune from all stain of original sin.135
492 The "splendor of an entirely unique holiness" by which Mary is "enriched from the first instant of her conception" comes wholly from Christ: she is "redeemed, in a more exalted fashion, by reason of the merits of her Son".136 The Father blessed Mary more than any other created person "in Christ with every spiritual blessing in the heavenly places" and chose her "in Christ before the foundation of the world, to be holy and blameless before him in love".137
493 The Fathers of the Eastern tradition call the Mother of God "the All-Holy" (Panagia), and celebrate her as "free from any stain of sin, as though fashioned by the Holy Spirit and formed as a new creature".138 By the grace of God Mary remained free of every personal sin her whole life long.
"Let it be done to me according to your word. . ."
494 At the announcement that she would give birth to "the Son of the Most High" without knowing man, by the power of the Holy Spirit, Mary responded with the obedience of faith, certain that "with God nothing will be impossible": "Behold, I am the handmaid of the Lord; let it be [done] to me according to your word."139 Thus, giving her consent to God's word, Mary becomes the mother of Jesus. Espousing the divine will for salvation wholeheartedly, without a single sin to restrain her, she gave herself entirely to the person and to the work of her Son; she did so in order to serve the mystery of redemption with him and dependent on him, by God's grace:140
As St. Irenaeus says, "Being obedient she became the cause of salvation for herself and for the whole human race."141 Hence not a few of the early Fathers gladly assert. . .: "The knot of Eve's disobedience was untied by Mary's obedience: what the virgin Eve bound through her disbelief, Mary loosened by her faith."142 Comparing her with Eve, they call Mary "the Mother of the living" and frequently claim: "Death through Eve, life through Mary."143 29142. Jenerator - 9/22/2008 3:51:56 AM Being the highest of the Redeemed, the Mother of Christ was freed from the bond of Original Sin
Then what does she need to be redeemed from? Also, I am still waiting for you to show me scriptural evidence for this. So far, you have shown me nothing that supports this stance.
29143. Jenerator - 9/22/2008 3:52:46 AM That's Pope Pius, Jexster, that's not the New Testament. Show me scriptual evidence that proves Mary was without sin. 29144. Jenerator - 9/22/2008 3:54:27 AM PROVE this!
The most Blessed Virgin Mary was, from the first moment of her conception, by a singular grace and privilege of almighty God and by virtue of the merits of Jesus Christ, Savior of the human race, preserved immune from all stain of original sin.135 29145. Jenerator - 9/22/2008 3:55:53 AM Show me where in the scriptures it claims that Mary was without sin. Just show me. Pope Pius is not part of the scriptures. St. Iraneus is an early church father, not the author of the New Testament.
Show me the scriptures, Jex. Look through the birth narratives, find the evidence that states that Mary was born without sin. 29146. Jenerator - 9/22/2008 3:56:37 AM Meanwhile, I am going to have some (late) dinner. I will await the scriptural evidence! 29147. jexster - 9/22/2008 4:05:58 AM
The belief of the Immaculate Conception of Mary says nothing about Mary and personal sin (Rom 3:23).
There's the evidence
Make of it what you will... 29148. jexster - 9/22/2008 4:06:20 AM
Then what does she need to be redeemed from?
UH..SIN 29149. jexster - 9/22/2008 4:06:47 AM Original sin..it is a doctrinal statement about Jesus Christ 29150. jexster - 9/22/2008 4:08:41 AM PROVE this!
Oh you mean like PROVE Jesus rose from the dead ..that he is True God and True Man?
Because if he is, the Immaculate Conception flows from that if not, not
Can't prove a faith statement... 29151. jexster - 9/22/2008 4:10:21 AM You mean like a tape recording of the Angel Gabriel???
Something like the Quran is to Muslims? Or the Book of Mormon to Moronis
Sorry the Christian Scriptures aren't that 29152. Jenerator - 9/22/2008 4:12:16 AM If she is without sin, why would she need to be redeemed from sin, Jexster? That's nonsensical. 29153. Jenerator - 9/22/2008 4:12:34 AM That's like saying that Christ needs to be redeemed. 29154. jexster - 9/22/2008 4:13:26 AM But if you believe in the Word, and the Word became flesh of the Virgin Mary, the Immaculate Conception is hardly difficult to understand
And has been so understood from the Church's very beginning.
29155. jexster - 9/22/2008 4:15:18 AM Like I said, the Doctrine isn't about Mary, it is about her Son..he freed her from Original Sin of Eve (mankind) from Before Time because the Word pre-existed creation....
29156. jexster - 9/22/2008 4:15:45 AM Otherwise she could never have said YES to Gabriel
That's all it says... 29157. Jenerator - 9/22/2008 4:16:14 AM Sorry the Christian Scriptures aren't that
There is no scriptural evidence to support Pius' declaration that Mary was without sin. None. Instead of simply honoring her, you all have catapulted her to the level of Christ.
Why isn't Joseph held in the same regard? He was Christ's earthly father. Was he without sin, too? What about Christ's earthly brothers? Uncles? Aunts? Cousins?
29158. jexster - 9/22/2008 4:18:02 AM It is NOT like saying the Redeemer needed to be Redeemed
That makes no sense
It is saying something about the Redemption itself and because that is a Mystery no human words can capture, all attempts to understand are the very stuff of a life of faith
The Doctrine of the Immaculate conception is about Jesus not about Mary
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