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29178. Jenerator - 9/22/2008 11:21:55 AM You can't find it in scripture. In other words, the sacred texts that our Christian faith is built on, does not prove your stance.
Christian belief holds that every human being through faith and through baptism is freed from sin - original sin and personal sin - through the grace of Jesus Christ.
That's news to me! The scriptures don't support this, either, Jexster. Show me where we become sinless after baptism!
This is why you want to believe that infant baptism is necessary - to cover yourselves! That way, even an unbeliever is supposedly covered. A person who was baptized as a baby (with no intellectual capacity to understand what s/he is doing) can live a completely horrible life and reject Christ, and yet still be saved according to the Church.
Jexster, has your life been free of sin since baptism?
Of course not.
Wabbit - I think your statement about the Christian not having to be accountable for his/her actions applies more to the Catholic stance here, 29179. jexster - 9/22/2008 3:57:06 PM There's a great deal that is news to you Jen 29180. jexster - 9/22/2008 3:58:22 PM Like the salvation bought by Christ
But don't worry ..the Church knows.
I am not running an inquirers class for Catholic bashers 29181. jexster - 9/22/2008 3:58:49 PM Wabbit has a question about the faith I will answer it.
29182. jexster - 9/22/2008 4:05:50 PM You will find the correct theology of the "one baptism for the forgiveness of sin" Here
The Sacrament of Baptism Here
The Sacrament of Penance & reconcilliation Here
If you are interested which it doesn't appear you are.
As I said, and I have now read the first third of the Encyclical just to confirm, I have contrary to your claim, stated the Dogma of the IC very well on the fly.
Like I said, if you want to launch ad hominem against something about which you insist on being willfully ignorant
That's your business
Talk to yourself 29183. jexster - 9/22/2008 4:25:25 PM There is a reason the Church considers baptists to be heretics Wabbit 29184. jexster - 9/22/2008 5:45:16 PM This is cool. By Linda Hansen HuffPO
She's the aunt of Atlantic Artists Christian Rock Star
SETH BOLT...sigh
Said she thought of me the entire time she was writing it. If only her nephew were...sigh sigh sigh
Praying For Pipelines Not My Kind Of Religion
I am a person of faith. A believer. Prayer is a part of my daily life. And I've had a rough week.
29185. wabbit - 9/22/2008 8:01:24 PM Jen Message # 29178,
It isn't that a nasty evil person is not accountable, but I'm wondering what that accountability consists of. It seems that so long as you believe in God and have been baptised, you are going to heaven — regardless of what you may have done in your life on earth, you will receive forgiveness and be saved from hell. Which essentially means you skate on your bad behavior as long as you believe and, perhaps, ask for forgiveness. Those who do not believe are going to hell anyway, regardless of the quality of their life, but there is an out for those who do believe.
If that is the case, what real incentive would a person who is inclined to be mean-spirited, selfish or evil have to be anything else? Or can you get to the Judgment, being a believer and asking for forgiveness, and have God look you in the eye and say, "You were a waste of oxygen, hie thee to hell."?
Perhaps I'm completely off, which is why I'm asking the question. 29186. Jenerator - 9/22/2008 9:01:26 PM There is a reason the Church considers baptists to be heretics
The Church doesn't consider Baptist heretics anymore, Jexster. Remember when your infallible Pope changed his mind? 29187. judithathome - 9/22/2008 9:44:18 PM
Well, you and I both will have to stand before Christ
Wait a minute...why? I God was the ultimate authority... 29188. Jenerator - 9/22/2008 11:59:51 PM Ah Judith, with your usual great contribution to the discussion.
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Oh, the doctrine on the Immaculate Conception of Mary is NOT 2000 years old, Jex. I believe Pius "commanded" it from his throne in 1854, yes?
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Wabbit
Accepting Jesus Christ as your Lord and Savior means you repent of your sin. You turn away from your wicked lifestyle and endeavor to be like Christ. You claim that Jesus has paid the price for your sins and your trust in his atonement for you is what gets you into heaven. Your rewards in heaven are based on your life. As it says in John, "My Father's house has many mansions." So not all of us will be in the same circumstances in heaven.
29189. jexster - 9/23/2008 12:39:35 AM NeedTobreathe: Washed by the Water
Seth is a little Christian Rocker dreamboat..hehehehe 29190. anomie - 9/23/2008 1:51:45 AM Wabbit... Assuming anyone can join this fight, my 2 cents: Jen skirted the fundamental issue of catholic church authority verses individual interpretation and relationship with the divine, but I think more needs to be said. Catholic authority ultimately comes from God and flows through the church with the understanding that God will honor the relationship to the extent that the church can be the vehicle of salvation. Protestants, OTOH believe (wrongly) that they have their own cozy little relationship and their own inspired wisdom to interpret scripture, but they deceive themselves. What they really do is obey and spout the doctrines they have been taught in a way very similar to Catholics (or to cults - yes Jen). The difference is that after scolding you they don't take responsibilty for any soul but their own.
As seen here, Jen is so sure of her "interpretations" that she feels quite comfortable pointing out the error of two thousand years of Catholic scholarship and doctrine. Now, if it is true that we must have our own personal relationship with God instead of relying on church doctrine for salvation, then how does Jen KNOW that anyone else is wrong. The only way she COULD know is if she thought HER reading of the bible (as I have said before the bible can be an idol), was superior to a real living God working either within a person or through a church.
(I could be wrong, but I don't think the Catholic church idolizes the bible in the same way some protestants do.) 29191. anomie - 9/23/2008 1:55:10 AM Jen? Is everything you say here, (your interpretations) as true and infallible as the scripture you say it is from? If your answer is yes, would you mind answering a few questions about some of the claims you've made? 29192. Jenerator - 9/23/2008 2:03:07 AM Anomie,
Why don't you begin your scrutiny with the Catholic Church's stance on the Immaculate Conception. Perhaps YOU can find the scriptures that claim that Mary was born without sin, lived a life without sin, and died a virgin (despite having children with Joseph).
29193. jexster - 9/23/2008 2:09:24 AM If Anomie wants to find the scriptural sources for Catholic teaching begin with the Catechism and move to Redemptoris Mater.
Or rely on what Jen tells you about Catholic teaching
No brainer
29194. jexster - 9/23/2008 2:13:40 AM Her problem is that she MUST talk about Catholic teaching because she cannot speak of Protestant teaching.
There is no such thing.
There is a reason that there are so many prot sects. Each splits from the other in a process that began with Calvin and Luther and continues to this day
Of most current interest, Sarah Palin's church has been declared heretical by the Assemblies of God!
Speaking of splinters
Divisions within Protestant Christianity
29195. jexster - 9/23/2008 2:20:32 AM The problem this causes Jen should by now be obvious - she cannot intelligently discuss Catholic Faith because she defines herself against it 29196. anomie - 9/23/2008 2:31:30 AM Jen! You're cool and charming but if you haven't noticed, I'm not on your side. And anyway, afaic, the Church doesn't need scripture to justify their traditions or doctrines. You protestants are the ones who keep going back to the dead idol (the bible) to read the tea stains, or entrails or whatever you use to come up with your latest doctrinal fads and fancies. Last I looked, Catholics believe in a living God, not a dead book. 29197. wonkers2 - 9/23/2008 2:33:54 AM A Roman Catholic friend said tonight that St. Thomas taught that life begins at baptism, not at conception. What's the origin of the current dogma that life begins at conception? And is it true that at one time the Catholic doctrine was that life begin when the fetus is mature enough to survive outside the womb?
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