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29200. iiibbb - 9/23/2008 1:01:34 PM Speaking as a Protestant (Presbyterian background) who doesn't go to church much... I do subscribe to Luther's concept of sola fide. A relationship with God doesn't require the church... but if Catholics want to go about it that way that doesn't negate their relationship with God either.
I just think there's no knowing what God's thinking. Although, there's a lot of people with opinions on the matter... 29201. Jenerator - 9/23/2008 1:06:51 PM Message # 29196 makes no sense, Anomie.
So the Catholic Church doesn't need the scriptures to back up its doctrines now?
That would definitely explain why it believes that Mary was born sinless like Christ and that people like you will go to purgatory!
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Jexster,
I have defended myself many times over the years. I just want you to find support within the Bible that Mary was born sinless and remained a virgin her entire life while having other children with Joseph.
Not the Catechism, not Pius' writings, the SCRIPTURES.
Defend your belief with scriptural evidence, 29202. Jenerator - 9/23/2008 1:09:38 PM What I am asking for is fair, so quit the hysterics. 29203. anomie - 9/23/2008 3:52:32 PM Jen, it makes perfect sense, but you are so caught up in your doctrines and dogmas that, like a cult member, you can't see clearly outside your own preconceptions. You didn't come up with your views by simply reading the bible. You were indoctrinated into a whole set of views and beliefs that are extra-biblical. You didn't get these beliefs from the bible, but from other people...a church, so to speak. A church with it's own traditions and extra-biblical practices and orthodoxies.
I find it particularly telling that you don't even seem to grasp the concept of a living God who might be active in his one church - a church which relies on the authority of said God rather than the bible. But it's true, Jen. Catholics believe in God and the church, not the bible. They do not idolize it the way protestants do. And so, yes, they can legitimize doctrines and sacraments without reference to the old or new testaments. But you see, protestants do the same thing with two differences: They don't admit it, and they don't take responsibilty for their fellow souls. Protestantism is a lonely and risky business where God is concerned, according to you. At least Catholics have the courage to put their faith on the line for the whole church.
And just as a curiosity, do you even get the irony involved in accepting the canon as approved by the Catholic church, while rejecting its authority as the true church?
These things are so simple to grasp I have to think you are pulling my leg at times. 29204. wabbit - 9/23/2008 4:06:41 PM Message # 29188
Jen, so essentially, as long as you repent, even at the last minute, you are saved. It's like telling two children to behave and they will get candy at the end of the day. One behaves, the other doesn't, and the one who doesn't gets less candy, but still gets candy. It doesn't seem that there is any real imperative to be a good person in this life.
re: Mary being a virgin all her life — I always thought that honorific was about the birth of Jesus. Also, isn't it possible that the brothers of Jesus were half-brothers or cousins? Weren't the apostles referred to as Jesus' brothers? Does everything one believes need to be explicit in the NT in order for it to be valid?
Message # 29190
anomie, thank you, that helps clarify the authority question I had. 29205. anomie - 9/23/2008 4:56:57 PM Jen, you ask, "So the Catholic Church doesn't need the scriptures to back up its doctrines now?"
Tell me when it EVER did need scripture to formulate doctrines, creeds and sacraments? The Catholic church decided what scripture IS! 29206. judithathome - 9/23/2008 10:12:31 PM Ah Judith, with your usual great contribution to the discussion.
Yes, and you still haven't answered my question: why does Jexster have to stand before Christ when it is God who has the final say? After all, Christ is just an agent of the one true God, is he not? He didn't become God...if that is so, why bother with what God thinks? Just concentrate on making JC happy.
And yes, yes, I read all that about "son of God in human form" but in the end, GOD is the doorman to heaven...people get in on his say-so, right? He's the decider.
29207. anomie - 9/23/2008 10:35:22 PM I don't speak for Jen, but most "trinitarians" believe Jesus IS God. The distinction is not so much in the person but the personality. Besides, Jen rarely answers questions anyway. 29208. vonKreedon - 9/23/2008 11:01:27 PM Jen asks, IMO, a fair question as to what source documents there are for allegation that Mary was without sin. Since Jen is a Protestant Fundamentalist the only valid source documents are the Old and New Testaments and there does not appear to be any foundation in those docs for the belief that Mary was without sin. So the Catholic doctrine of the Blessed Virgin is not Biblically based, well, other than the Virgin Birth bit, but rather part of the ongoing divine revelation to various saints and Popes.
Certainly the Catholics can come to their beliefs as they wish, as can the Protestants, but Jen's question is clear and fair. 29209. anomie - 9/23/2008 11:13:01 PM Yes, her question is fair. Her implication that the doctrines in question are less valid or true, is pretense and arrogance. 29210. vonKreedon - 9/23/2008 11:24:02 PM Well, pretty much any belief that one's doctrines are valid and true is going to contain at least smidge of belief that other doctrines are invalid and untrue. This seems particularly so with doctrines of the divine and salvation/punishment. Jex is no less pretentious and arrogant in his beliefs. 29211. anomie - 9/24/2008 12:44:00 AM True, and I'm not certain about this, but I don't think Catholics insist that their God will condemn others who don't believe and act the way they do. They give God the option to do as he pleases. Jen's crowd keeps God trapped within the idol, which is of course, the bible. In Jen's view, the bible (or certain interpretations of it) is the authority, not God, not the church. Baptists are like the Israelites in the desert who needed a statue to contain, and thus limit their childish idea of a deity. Baptists like to be in total control of their God, so they carry him around in a leather, zippered case, and dog-ear the pages. And they make many, many copies. 29212. Jenerator - 9/26/2008 2:38:29 AM Sorry for my absence the last couple of days. My husband was diagnosed with acute diverticulitis. I thought I might have to take him to the hospital today but he keeps refusing. He's pretty much incapacitated, but until he's in enough pain, I guess he's willling to suffer.
29213. wonkers2 - 9/26/2008 2:10:05 PM Can anybody of you religious gurus tell me the origin of the "life begins at conception" doctrine? 29214. anomie - 9/26/2008 3:25:15 PM Here's to a speedy recovery, Jen. Sorry to hear it. 29215. anomie - 9/26/2008 3:26:21 PM W2, I don't know about the origin, but it seems a necessary position if one is to oppose abortion at whatever term. 29216. wonkers2 - 9/26/2008 10:25:09 PM It does. However, I wonder which came first, the chicken or the egg? Did somebody dream up the concept that a human being worthy of protection under any and all circumstances begins at the instant of conception in order to support an absolute prohibition of abortion. Or did the crusade to prohibit an abortion under any circumstances grow out of some Christian dogma about the sanctity of zygotes? And of course the same reasoning is used to prohibit potentially life saving embryonic stem cell research. Some of these same people are staunch supporters of capital punishment and needless wars in which thousands of innocent people are slaughtered.
Jen, I, too wish your husband a speedy and complete recovery. 29217. anomie - 9/26/2008 10:33:41 PM A complete guess on my part, but I would bet on the first option. I suspect it stems from the days when the church thought God was in control of everyone's destiny. I'm also thinking this may be why so many woman died giving birth, instead of sacrificing the child. 29218. anomie - 9/26/2008 10:35:25 PM You know...father gets a son. Woman dies. God's will. 29219. wonkers2 - 9/26/2008 11:18:41 PM Hmmh.
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