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9543. bhelpuri - 7/3/2013 8:07:39 AM are you as concerned with private entities holding the same data and using it with no oversight or accountability for their own ends
It's a dissimilar concern, which I don't buy as a mitigating factor.
Speaking only for myself, I am not surprised that this had been going on or even the full extent of its (extraordinary) scale. What does raise my eyebrows is the degree of complicity between the US-based corporations and the intelligence infrastructure. Turns out they've been fully in cahoots from the beginning. Turns out that companies like Facebook + Google would never have become as big and pervasive as they have without co-operation, and probably the specific backing of the security state. In this and many other ways, the US is revealed to be very much like China after all!
And that last is a blow. You will definitely see a surge away from this giant US-based multinationals in the coming year, without a doubt, it's just that most of this will happen with their clients outside the US. I suspect this will add up to a rare investment opportunity in Internet and telecom companies in Europe, Asia...
9544. bhelpuri - 7/3/2013 8:18:34 AM The corporatization of almost everything and the increased privatization of crucial government services is IMO the most dangerous threat to the US.
I definitely agree it is the biggest threat to the oft-touted American "way of life", and "American values." It's crazy how docile and sheeplike this once-robust democratic polity has become.
And even mass protests don't help because the powers that be don't have anything to lose by being non responsive.
Here I don't agree, at all. In fact mass protests, civil disobedience, do help, and in the end are probably the only way that the United States can start to beat back their own highly predatory, extraordinarily selfish elites. A million people on the streets every day in just one American city would shake the government to its foundations, possibly permanently strip the layer of legitimacy that is given to the status quo. It has happened before, it happens that way all over the world (see Egypt for reference), and you just can't expect any real change in the US unless it happens again. 9545. bhelpuri - 7/3/2013 8:21:59 AM An interesting thought - once the Latino-ization of the US reaches truly substantial critical mass, let's say 40% of the electorate, then you could well see a different kind of politics being pursued than the current two-parties-one-voice shadow boxing. Veneceremos! 9546. bhelpuri - 7/3/2013 8:50:09 AM I agree with Arky that this kind of activity is actually the nature of the beast. But the beast is now a curious multi-headed hybrid of corporate civilians, government employees and the military that adds up to something really extraordinary and powerful. Immediately after these revelations, various cases came to mind: the Spitzer fall, the Petraeus affair. How did these guys get busted - tiny little bits of information that they thought had been deeply buried in the "information superhighway." Both have and had huge political enemies, and faced opposition from gargantuan vested interests. Was the current administration complicit in bringing them down via surveillance? Was it a separate entity pursuing its own agenda? You all have known me here for years as really not a conspiracy theorist of any kind, but in these and other cases it is difficult to ignore the dotted lines.
It's a crisis, and a crossroads moment. I think the US reaction to this information is very very critical to the future of the country, and certainly its image abroad. 9547. bhelpuri - 7/3/2013 8:50:37 AM sorry! 9548. Wombat - 7/3/2013 2:50:46 PM Bhel,
The flip side of the pervasiveness of personal data collection and tracking by nongovernmental bodies is convenience and portability. Previously complicated transactions and necessary information-sharing can now be accomplished in seconds with a few key strokes. Anyone who uses on-line banking knows this (and they should be aware that there is the capacity for others to track their activities).
9549. arkymalarky - 7/3/2013 5:17:45 PM But if governments are attempting to hack each others systems and institutions like banks are vulnerable to legitimate and purposeful tampering, then what happens to the people who depend on these systems in the event of a breakdown, intentional or otherwise? If WWIII is a cyber war it could break out with no warning and devastate almost everyone. This means we've become so blindly dependent on a corporate controlled infrastructure that a systemic shift the other way may be almost impossible already.
The reason I said mass protests are futile Bhel is because these big multinationals would be unaffected and don't give two shits what any group thinks. What impact would they have? 9550. arkymalarky - 7/3/2013 5:24:16 PM And many of the most concerning ones contract with the government. I don't think it's about Facebook or amazon or even Google. It's not about personal data collection or data mining. It's about the entire edifice and how embedded into it we all are. Government has a duty to control this and instead it has embraced and itself become dependent on corporate contracts of high tech services. 9551. arkymalarky - 7/3/2013 5:30:31 PM I'm not a conspiracy theorist either, though I definitely wear a tinfoil hat on this issue; but what concerns me more than even a conspiracy is that no one is minding the store which means each entity, whether government (any nation, not just the US) or corporate, has its own agenda and is trying to drive different outcomes. Which means possible endagmes are hard to even visualize, much less predict. 9552. arkymalarky - 7/3/2013 5:41:30 PM In short, I think it's naive to think we have privacy on the information networks, but we have a right to expect security and responsible use of not only our private information, but the tech systems we depend on. Effectively demanding such a thing is another story. Several years ago in AR a copy of thousands of teachers' personal info was stolen or just disappeared ( why they had it in a format that made that possible is beyond me). No one was held accountable, nothing happened, nothing was resolved. There's essentially no accountability at any level. 9553. judithathome - 7/3/2013 7:08:48 PM " A million people on the streets every day in just one American city would shake the government to its foundations, possibly permanently strip the layer of legitimacy that is given to the status quo."
.....Sorry but Big Brother Gates just downloaded a new browser that I didn't order and I can't make the little HTML tags...my little "i" inside them turns into a capital letter as soon as I do the closing tag.....
Anyhow, in response to the quoted statement above, the government i.e. members of it...wouldn't bat an eye if millions took to the streets...the parties are safe in most areas because of gerrymandering (redistricting). Here in Texas it is practically impossible to elect a Democrat...in some states, the reverse is true.
These politicians care about the PARTY, not about the PEOPLE. If one candidate only got 20 votes in a state election and the other guy got 5, the Party would have won, regardless.
Our system of elections is broken...re-districting and Big Money has seen to that. Most people just won't admit it. 9554. arkymalarky - 7/3/2013 7:21:45 PM use Chrome Judith. Google is a much better Big Brother than Microsoft.heh.
I think you're exactly right. What the Koch Bros are doing is being done at the state level everywhere and the SCOTUS VRA decision will allow them to finish the job. 9555. arkymalarky - 7/3/2013 7:22:28 PM scaring the piss out of white people might not even have been necessary. 9556. arkymalarky - 7/3/2013 7:23:01 PM that is to say white heterosexual people. 9557. arkymalarky - 7/3/2013 8:25:18 PM I guess is to be expected, but man the situation in Egypt is moving like lightning. 9558. Wombat - 7/3/2013 10:04:20 PM A democratic system of government needs a degree of consensus and safeguards that protect all participants. Something Morsi hadn't figured out, and the Republicans in this country seem to be forgetting. 9559. vonKreedon - 7/4/2013 1:13:49 AM Yep. 9560. bhelpuri - 7/4/2013 2:46:36 PM Yet another spectacular mis-step by Obama regarding Snowden. "Latin America demands an explanation."
American media purposefully avoiding, but the fact is the shit has hit the fan worldwide after the continuing revelations from this rather amazing whistleblower. I am among those who find his actions heroic.9561. Wombat - 7/4/2013 4:45:05 PM Most countries would rather continue to have a positive relationship with the United States, and not do things that would needlessly affect those relationships.
Had Bhelpuri's "hero" stayed in the US to take his legal lumps, he would have a better case for both whistleblowing and "martyrdom." Instead he put himself in the hands of not one but two countries' intelligence services. The only sensible member of the Snowdon family is his father, who is trying to negotiate a way for his son to return. In this, he is opposed by Wikileaks, which of course has its own agenda, one which apparently prefers to see Snowdon as a man without a country. 9562. arkymalarky - 7/4/2013 6:15:31 PM As someone who generally thinks Anonymous is a good thing and Aaron Schwartz was right, I tend to agree with Wombat here. I feel the same way about Manning and Assange. But part of the issue IMO is also carelessness and even sloppiness on the part of the government art its hiring, security of info within and among its ranks, and a lack of clarity as to how that security relates to its goals and missions. There are tech whizzes who are certainly talented enough to drop out of high school and contract out as government employees making six figures. But are they the best hires on the basis of their tech talent? Or should there at least be a different set of security policies so as not to miss out on top talent but not be as vulnerable? There are other concerns that the Snowden incident reveals which need to be addressed, whether people agree with him or not.
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