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28604. alistairConnor - 10/28/2006 1:48:03 PM How about Numbers 15?
Here we have an explanation that people of other religions are subjected to all the strictures of the Jews when they happen to be among Jews :
15:15 One ordinance shall be both for you of the congregation, and also for the stranger that sojourneth with you, an ordinance for ever in your generations: as ye are, so shall the stranger be before the LORD.
15:16 One law and one manner shall be for you, and for the stranger that sojourneth with you.
Not, in itself, an injunction to religious tolerance. At best, we can say that it is even-handed.
There follows an explanation that when sins are committed out of ignorance, they may be atoned for by the correct sacrifices. This applies equally to Jews and non-Jews :
15:29 Ye shall have one law for him that sinneth through ignorance, both for him that is born among the children of Israel, and for the stranger that sojourneth among them.
The next passage, an anecdote, is a little bit puzzling. One would expect it to be an illustration of what has been explained.
15:32 And while the children of Israel were in the wilderness, they found a man that gathered sticks upon the sabbath day.
This guy is presumably a non-Jew : he is not part of the "children of Israel".
So shall we discuss what happens to him?
This is fun. Shooting fish in a barrel. 28605. jexster - 10/28/2006 5:52:16 PM Start with the Reconquista, thence to the Inquisistion and let them come forth with examples of forced conversionas of Christians and Jews
Bring it on you historians of Islamofascism 28606. jexster - 10/28/2006 7:59:45 PM You'd think that if forced conversions were a fundamental feature of Islam that you'd at least find it in the history of Islam in India where the monotheistic religion met the "pagans" - a group unlike the favored Christians and Jews is looked down upon, at least in its Meccan form.
Coincidentally, I'm just now watching a History Channel production "India" and they are quite emphatic. For 500 years or so, Muslims lived in India, even ruled at times and it wasn't until the invasion of the Mughal's that religious intolerance appeared. Until then, the Arab amd Turk muslims stressed cultural integration and tolerance.
India today contains the world's second largest Shiite population second only to Iran 28607. jexster - 10/28/2006 8:02:27 PM 2:256 There is no compulsion in religion, for the right way is clearly from the wrong way. Whoever therefore rejects the forces of evil and believes in God, he has taken hold of a support most unfailing, which shall never give way, for God is All Hearing and Knowing. 28608. concerned - 10/29/2006 3:38:05 PM With all due respect, jexster, wrt Islam that's bullshit. For instance, as well as being the most prescriptive and limiting major religion on earth, Islam as practiced generally prescribes the death penalty for apostasy (leaving Islam) for whatever reason. From Wikipedia:
The Hadith (the body of quotes attributed to Muhammad and claimed eyewitnesses' accounts of Muhammad's life and deeds) includes statements that Muslim scholars such as Sheikh Muhammed Salih Al-Munajjid see as supporting the death penalty for apostasy. [2] Only those from Sahih Bukhari, which are considered reliable by most Muslims generally are given below:
"Allah's Apostle said, The blood of a Muslim, who confesses that none has the right to be worshipped but Allah and that I am His Apostle, cannot be shed except in three cases: In Qisas for murder, a married person who commits illegal sexual intercourse and the one who reverts from Islam (apostate) and leaves the Muslims." 9:83:17
Narrated 'Ikrima: 'Ali burnt some people and this news reached ibn 'Abbas, who said, "Had I been in his place I would not have burnt them, as the Prophet said, 'Don't punish (anybody) with Allah's Punishment.' No doubt, I would have killed them, for the Prophet said, 'If somebody (a Muslim) discards his religion, kill him.'" 4:52:260
The legal regulation concerning the male and the female who reverts from Islam (apostates). Ibn 'Umar, Az-Zuhri and Ibrahim said, "A female apostate (who reverts from Islam), should be killed. And the obliging of the reverters from Islam (apostates) to repent. Allah said: — 'How shall Allah guide a people who disbelieved after their belief and (after) they bore witness that the Apostle (Muhammad) was true, and that Clear Signs had come unto them? And Allah does not guide the wrong-doing people. As for such the reward is that on them (rests) the curse of Allah, the Angels, and of all mankind. They will abide there-in (Hell). Neither will their torment be lightened nor it will be postponed (for a while). Except for those that repent after that and make amends. Verily Allah is Oft-Forgiving, Most Merciful. Surely those who disbelieved after their belief, and go on adding to their defiance of faith, never will their repentance be accepted, and they are those who have gone astray.' (Sura 3:86-90) Bukhari Volume 9, Book 84, Chapter 2, p. 42-43.
57. Narrated 'Ikrima: Some Zanadiqa (atheists) were brought to 'Ali and he burnt them. The news of this event, reached Ibn 'Abbas who said, "If I had been in his place, I would not have burnt them, as Allah's Apostle forbade it, saying, 'Do not punish anybody with Allah's punishment (fire).' I would have killed them according to the statement of Allah's Apostle, 'Whoever changed his Islamic religion, then kill him.'" 9:84:57
58. Narrated Abu Burda: Abu Musa said, "I came to the Prophet along with two men (from the tribe) of Ash'ariyin, one on my right and the other on my left, while Allah's Apostle was brushing his teeth (with a Siwak), and both men asked him for some employment. The Prophet said, 'O Abu Musa (O 'Abdullah bin Qais!).' I said, 'By Him Who sent you with the Truth, these two men did not tell me what was in their hearts and I did not feel (realize) that they were seeking employment.' As if I were looking now at his Siwak being drawn to a corner under his lips, and he said, 'We never (or, we do not) appoint for our affairs anyone who seeks to be employed. But O Abu Musa! (or 'Abdullah bin Qais!) Go to Yemen.'" The Prophet then sent Mu'adh bin Jabal after him and when Mu'adh reached him, he spread out a cushion for him and requested him to get down (and sit on the cushion). Behold: There was a fettered man beside Abu Musa. Mu'adh asked, "Who is this (man)?" Abu Muisa said, "He was a Jew and became a Muslim and then reverted back to Judaism." Then Abu Musa requested Mu'adh to sit down but Mu'adh said, "I will not sit down till he has been killed. This is the judgment of Allah and His Apostle (for such cases) and repeated it thrice. Then Abu Musa ordered that the man be killed, and he was killed. Abu Musa added, "Then we discussed the night prayers and one of us said, 'I pray and sleep, and I hope that Allah will reward me for my sleep as well as for my prayers.'" 9:84:58 28609. concerned - 10/29/2006 3:50:26 PM Islamic Apostasy - so much more than just converting from Islam:
What constitutes apostasy in Islam
Regarding monotheism and polytheism:
1) public declaration or conduct that denies Islam, its beliefs, symbols or its principal actors such as statements as "I believe in gods other than Allah", or "God has a material form".
Worshipping an idol.
2)Denying the existence of God (atheism).
Saying the world has always existed from eternity, in such a way that it denies the existence of God as a creator.
3)Saying that the world is everlasting and without end, in such a way that it could be interpreted as a denial of resurrection.
4)Believing in reincarnation into this world, in such a way that it could be interpreted as a denial of resurrection.
Regarding prophethood of Muhammad:
1)Rejecting Muhammad's claim to be a prophet, or denying the concept of prophethood.
2)Implying that one can become a prophet through spiritual exercise, since that would imply the possibility of a prophet after Muhammad.
3)Saying that there were prophets after Muhammad.
4)Cursing Muhammad.
5)Questioning the perfection of Muhammad's knowledge or defaming his character, morals, virtues, or faith.
Regarding beliefs:
1)Any clearly blasphemous action, such as burning the Qur'an out of contempt, and every manner of soiling it out of contempt or hatred. The same may also apply to the Hadiths books.
2)Contradicting the positions that are upheld by a consensus (ijma) of Muslim scholars (ulema), such as saying that prayers or fasting are not obligatory, or that the prohibition of adultery does not have to be followed. Not following these doctrines does not make one an apostate, but saying they need not be followed does.
In Islamic society apostasy must be determined by the testimony of two adult Muslim witnesses, in respectable standing, whose accounts agree. Also, any death penalty case has to be determined by the testimony of four adult Muslim witnesses, in respectable standing, whose accounts agree, for the execution to occur.
This also illustrates why separation of state and religion is unacceptable to most Muslims - the arm of the law is required to enforce among sane humans Islamic flat-earth religious beliefs and behavior.
28610. concerned - 10/29/2006 3:53:39 PM Islamic Apostasy - so much more than just converting from Islam:
What constitutes apostasy in Islam
Regarding monotheism and polytheism:
1) public declaration or conduct that denies Islam, its beliefs, symbols or its principal actors such as statements as "I believe in gods other than Allah", or "God has a material form".
Worshipping an idol.
2)Denying the existence of God (atheism).
Saying the world has always existed from eternity, in such a way that it denies the existence of God as a creator.
3)Saying that the world is everlasting and without end, in such a way that it could be interpreted as a denial of resurrection.
4)Believing in reincarnation into this world, in such a way that it could be interpreted as a denial of resurrection.
Regarding prophethood of Muhammad:
1)Rejecting Muhammad's claim to be a prophet, or denying the concept of prophethood.
2)Implying that one can become a prophet through spiritual exercise, since that would imply the possibility of a prophet after Muhammad.
3)Saying that there were prophets after Muhammad.
4)Cursing Muhammad.
5)Questioning the perfection of Muhammad's knowledge or defaming his character, morals, virtues, or faith.
Regarding beliefs:
1)Any clearly blasphemous action, such as burning the Qur'an out of contempt, and every manner of soiling it out of contempt or hatred. The same may also apply to the Hadiths books.
2)Contradicting the positions that are upheld by a consensus (ijma) of Muslim scholars (ulema), such as saying that prayers or fasting are not obligatory, or that the prohibition of adultery does not have to be followed. Not following these doctrines does not make one an apostate, but saying they need not be followed does.
In Islamic society apostasy must be determined by the testimony of two adult Muslim witnesses, in respectable standing, whose accounts agree. Also, any death penalty case has to be determined by the testimony of four adult Muslim witnesses, in respectable standing, whose accounts agree, for the execution to occur.
This also illustrates why separation of state and religion is unacceptable to most Muslims - the arm of the law is required to enforce among sane humans Islamic flat-earth religious beliefs and behavior.
28611. concerned - 10/29/2006 3:54:53 PM Islamic Apostasy - much more than converting from Islam:
What constitutes apostasy in Islam
Regarding monotheism and polytheism:
A public declaration or conduct that denies Islam, its beliefs, symbols or its principal actors such as statements as "I believe in gods other than Allah", or "God has a material form".
Worshipping an idol.
Denying the existence of God (atheism).
Saying the world has always existed from eternity, in such a way that it denies the existence of God as a creator.
Saying that the world is everlasting and without end, in such a way that it could be interpreted as a denial of resurrection.
Believing in reincarnation into this world, in such a way that it could be interpreted as a denial of resurrection.
Regarding prophethood of Muhammad:
Rejecting Muhammad's claim to be a prophet, or denying the concept of prophethood.
Implying that one can become a prophet through spiritual exercise, since that would imply the possibility of a prophet after Muhammad.
Saying that there were prophets after Muhammad.
Cursing Muhammad.
Questioning the perfection of Muhammad's knowledge or defaming his character, morals, virtues, or faith.
Regarding beliefs:
Any clearly blasphemous action, such as burning the Qur'an out of contempt, and every manner of soiling it out of contempt or hatred. The same may also apply to the Hadiths books.
Contradicting the positions that are upheld by a consensus (ijma) of Muslim scholars (ulema), such as saying that prayers or fasting are not obligatory, or that the prohibition of adultery does not have to be followed. Not following these doctrines does not make one an apostate, but saying they need not be followed does.
In Islamic society apostasy must be determined by the testimony of two adult Muslim witnesses, in respectable standing, whose accounts agree. Also, any death penalty case has to be determined by the testimony of four adult Muslim witnesses, in respectable standing, whose accounts agree, for the execution to occur.
This also illustrates why separation of state and religion is unacceptable to most Muslims - the arm of the law is required to enforce among sane humans Islamic flat-earth religious beliefs and behavior.
28612. concerned - 10/29/2006 4:07:13 PM Sorry about repeat posts -I'm having a lot of trouble posting to the Mote from home for some reason. Btw, 'worshipping an idol' deserves its own number as a form of Islamic apostasy. 28613. alistairConnor - 10/29/2006 7:30:05 PM I take it, Con, that you're going to pass on the Old Testament questions? Message # 28603 28614. poipual - 10/29/2006 10:42:51 PM alister
What is the point of quoting Bible verses from the Old Testament. Now if yu could show me a sigificant number od Christians or Jews who follow those verses, they would have meaning. In some Islamic countries, honor killins happen today, even in Jordan. I am swell aware that it predates Islam. You may take lightly what muslims are saying they intend doing, and I wonder why. 28615. alistairConnor - 10/29/2006 11:01:33 PM Al : I'm taking up Concerned's challenge. He said :
I have a better idea. Let's discuss the " verses of Christianity or Judaism" that exhort the believer to lie to, cheat, defraud and murder those of other faiths.
i.e. he seems to be claiming that Christianity is an inherently "better" religion than Christianity or Judaism, independently of whether or not people actually follow the scriptures or not.
So let's not shift the goalposts just yet. Not until Con has answered. 28616. alistairConnor - 10/29/2006 11:08:39 PM But I do agree, Al, with your implicit view that religion should be left out of politics.
However, there most certainly are political forces in Israel today who openly claim that they have a God-given right to make war on other tribes, just like in the Old Testament, to claim any territories they feel Israel should own. (Since you asked. I can dig up the names of the parties and individuals if you wish. And their government often seems to be following the same policy, though it doesn't generally say so.) 28617. poipual - 10/29/2006 11:16:00 PM I am so happy to hear that it is just an academic exercise between you and concerned. Why do I worry so much about what muslims are about. I'll be 75 in Feb., and evren though the Dr. said I had 20 years to go, he may be wrong, don't you know. But I have 11 grandchildren.
I might favor Christianity and Judism because I don't fear them, nor do I fear Budists or Hindos, or atheists or agnostics.
There is a road to peace with Islam. It is submission. Are we ready for that?
I know many liberals seem to fear Christians 28618. poipual - 10/29/2006 11:37:23 PM I am reading Churchill's "Memoirs of the Second World War". These words struck me:
"Still, if you will not fight for the right when you can easily win...you may come to a time when you will have to fight with all the odds against you and only a precarious chance of survival. There may even be a worse case. You may have to fight when there is no hope of victory, because it is better to perish than live as slaves."
Is Wisnton right today, or is submission the better choice? 28619. alistairConnor - 10/30/2006 12:07:18 AM If you are asking me whether Christians should make religious war against Moslems, then certainly I think they should not.
As for picking wars we can easily win. Are you proposing Afghanistan, or Iraq, as an example? 28620. jexster - 10/30/2006 12:39:02 AM We're losing..no we've lost both.
Allah! Allah! Save us!
Those unto whom We gave the Scripture recognize (this revelation) as they recognize their sons. But lo! a party of them knowingly conceal the truth. al-Qur'an 2:146 28621. jexster - 10/30/2006 2:01:22 AM Narrated AbuHurayrah:
Strongest among men in enmity to the believers (Muslims) wilt thou find the Jews and Pagans; and nearest among them in love to the believers wilt thou find those who say, 'We are Christians': because amongst these are men devoted to learning and men who have renounced the world, and they are not arrogant. (The Noble Quran, 5:82)"
Say: 'O People of the Book (i.e., Jews and Christians)! Come to common terms as between us and you: That we worship none but Allah; that we associate no partners with Him; that we erect not, from among ourselves, Lords and patrons other than Allah.' If then they turn back, say ye: 'Bear witness that we (at least) are Muslims (bowing to Allah's Will).' (The Noble Quran, 3:64)
No wonder Jen et al have to proof text their way ..way..way out views
It is all right wing Jew propaganda
28622. Jenerator - 10/30/2006 3:37:40 AM Jex,
Here's the issue (in a nutshell). Mohammed wrote down the scriptures at different times in his life while dealing with different issues. Even from a cursory reading of the Koran you can see a change in tone. Mohammed goes from one extreme to the next. First he claimed that Jews and Christians were People of the Book. Later he claims that they must convert or be killed.
There is an Islamic principle called nasikh that explains that when a verse is in direct contradiction with another verse, the newer verse is to been viewed as more authoritative because it would have been more recent from the mouth of Mohammed. Abrogation if you will. So, if Mohammed said 'eat apples on the second day of the week' and later said 'cut down an apple tree on the second day of the week', the latter verse is to be viewed as more authoritative.
So, in essence, you view Meccan scriptures in light of Medinan scriptures. 28623. Jenerator - 10/30/2006 3:40:57 AM You would still have Muslims eating apples rather than cutting down the apple trees and both groups would claim to be fully Muslim.
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