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809. CalGal - 2/21/2000 10:00:17 AM You announced at first that 'everyone' agreed on the Mote RoE, and had to be taken to task on that.
No, "everyone" did agree. I'm not backing off of that. People who don't participate can pretty much figure that silence=assent.
If you wish to change that? Go right ahead and make a proposal. But don't criticize the people here for using that in the past.
. And then you said that it was too much trouble to email everyone, and you were taken to task on that.
No, I did not say it was "too much trouble" to email people. I said "we can't do everything". You interpreted that as it being too much trouble. It's not what I said. 810. Candide - 2/21/2000 10:00:36 AM Here's a snivelling sycophantic contribution from a Motie not involved with policy.
I do find some discussions a bit more robust, or offensive, or trivial or hard hearted than I might wish.
But when I think of the dedication, hard work and vision that created and sustains the Mote, I feel grateful.
So even my old/young sparring mate CalGal gets my whole-hearted endorsement as basically "a good sport" and a dedicated operator. (Watch it though!)
My view is that some posts might be offensive and if enough contributors agree they should be removed. I haven't followed the antics of the central characters so have no opinion. Banning should surely be for some intolerable crime, not just for tedious obnoxiousness which seems to be the accusation in this case. 811. IrvingSnodgrass - 2/21/2000 10:02:24 AM wabbit:
I can live with that (barely). 812. CalGal - 2/21/2000 10:09:58 AM Irv,
I wouldn't have installed the changes without feedback. It may be that two pages won't work. However, I think there is a difference between a big "Page 2" and a subthread.
Christi,
I agree with your post, and thanks for taking the time out from your laundry (g). #6 is a tough one--on a case by case basis, it makes a lot of sense. But what if someone makes a whole series over time and then wants to take it all back?
I do think that anyone should be able to email a host and say, "Could you please delete Post X? I shouldn't have revealed that information." But what if the host isn't around right then? What if it's around for a couple hours and a lot of people read it in the meantime?
That's where things get dicey, and I'm not sure how to write up such a policy. I'm not disagreeing, I'm just not sure how it'd be done. I still think that this sort of thing is best covered by abuse. If someone references it, you ask them not to mention it--explain that you shouldn't have said it and ask it as a courtesy. Further refusals would be considered an abuse violation, not a privacy violation. (Obviously, it goes without saying that you would not have regularly referred to the information again.)
But I certainly would support anyone having the right to make a post and thinking, "Shit!" and asking the thread host (privately) to delete it. If someone abused this courtesy, we could just make that a separate issue. 813. Seguine - 2/21/2000 10:10:21 AM "But I'm not sure that anyone who both says they have a disease and that they are in favor of single payer health care should be able to complain if someone points out they may be biased. It might not be fun to experience, but I'm not sure that it's off-limits in and of itself."
Do you worry that Motiers are too uncreative to figure out how to insult one another without resorting to use of personal info?
Consider:
Cigarlaw, in a health care thread: 'I'm in favor of single-payer health care because it spreads out financial risk among the whole population.'
Asshole response: 'Well, I'd expect as much from someone who's dying of Lou Gherig's disease, but why should I pick up your tab?'
Alternative response: 'Well, maybe your own circumstances lead you to such opinions, but you're full of shit. Why should I be expected to pick up the tab for people less healthy than I am?'
Note that the latter response is not unaggressive. It does not lack for high-handedness, snideness, snottiness, or other qualities beloved of the asembled. It certainly suggests that Cigarlaw may hold views that are based on the state of his health. But it does not trade on wounding a man by announcing his infirmity to others, especially others just joining the discussion. It does not signal to newcomers that the person answering Cigarlaw knows his greatest weakness and will attempt to exploit it just because exploiting personal info other than identity can be gotten away with. 814. Candide - 2/21/2000 10:17:35 AM Seguine
But it's still yucky. (wrong thread) 815. Indiana Jones - 2/21/2000 10:18:23 AM The biggest downer I see to the continuous rancoring about policy is that it saps energy that could be going into more productive things. We have limited resources (time, brainpower), and while we keep rearranging the furniture, the Titanic can sink. Whether or not this argument turns people off, nothing is being constructed to turn people on.
It appears to me from the little experience I have working with community leaders that there is too much of what Niner would call "rank democracy." Everyone sees wabbit as ruling by decree, whereas wabbit sees herself as needing a consensus before acting. It's very hard for anyone to make a decision about anything. There's also too much sensitivity to complaints.
Early on in my thread-hosting tenure, Kuligin complained that I had let a harsh attack by CalGal go by the way. He asked "what kind of host" I was, and I made no attempt to defend myself, saying something like "a lousy one that rules by caprice and whim." He's never complained again and has in fact complimented me a couple of times.
In actuality, there's very little to complain about here. The volunteers have set up a pretty good framework conducive to lots of freedom: it's up to the community to stop bitching and make things better. 816. CalGal - 2/21/2000 10:23:54 AM Seguine,
I don't see how it can be considered exploitation if the information was provided online and directly associated with the individual in question.
I see no way for Wabbit to enforce this other than to determine if the post itself is abusive. But calling it a violation of privacy just doesn't seem right. The person made the information public. By definition it is no longer private. 817. cigarlaw - 2/21/2000 10:27:38 AM did i say that?" if so, i should be taken out andm shot like rabid dog.
i benefit from health insurabe, but think all health insurance should be outlawed. hell,if we had legicare instwed of medicare, i wouldn't need insurance. i would just pay cash. 818. CalGal - 2/21/2000 10:29:34 AM Cig,
I'm laughing at the notion of you favoring single payer. Let's just consider it a hypothetical. 819. IrvingSnodgrass - 2/21/2000 10:35:27 AM Indy:
It appears to me from the little experience I have working with community leaders that there is too much of what Niner would call "rank democracy." Everyone sees wabbit as ruling by decree, whereas wabbit sees herself as needing a consensus before acting.
The actual situation is similar to a judge, who hears arguments on all sides, and then makes a ruling. In wabbit's case, she often assesses the general feeling as well, and if there is consensus on an issue.
It would be nice, however, if we could limit those arguments at times to a post or two. Nothing is more depressing than a debate which goes on endlessly and pointlessly over obscure fine points.
I like the way we have arranged threads with individual hosts and policies. And I like your reply to Kuligin. It is very much in the spirit of things around here. 820. wabbit - 2/21/2000 10:38:38 AM Indy,
It isn't that I am looking for consensus; rather I am looking to enforce the existing RoE as best I can, more or less by my own interpretation of the RoE. I suspect I am more lenient than many would like in that interpretation, and not lenient enough for some. I don't expect to please everyone and frankly, pleasing everyone isn't my concern. 821. Seguine - 2/21/2000 10:41:22 AM CalGal, you persist in wanting to define the violation I propose in terms of abuse OR privacy violation. Let me state the proposal again:
Personal information may not be used to attack, harass, insult, or abuse.
You will notice that the prohibition lies at the intersection of addressing privacy and abuse, being concerned neither with one more than the other. It leaves all sorts of other varieties of attack, harassment, and abuse for you to worry about the unenforceability of. It does not require the moderator to concern herself with whether the info has ever, anywhere been disclosed by the person being attacked/harassed etc.
I am advocating making precisely one kind of abuse/insult/attack CLEARLY prohibited, and I am NOT contesting that IDs be considered inviolate. It shouldn't be hard to implement, and it should reassure newcomers that inadvertent disclosures won't be brought up 6 months down the line.
822. Angel-Five - 2/21/2000 10:47:04 AM Rule 1) Respect the privacy of other Motiers within the Mote
Privacy is important to many people here, for many different reasons. Please do not post any personal information about any poster without the express consent of that poster. Personal information consists of any information, explicit or deducible, about any poster which has not been explicitly mentioned within the confines of the Mote by that poster. References to personal information will be deleted by the thread host in all cases and the poster's ID may be suspended at the decision of the moderator and the offended party (both of whom must be in agreement for suspension to occur).
Rule 2) Respect other Motiers' feelings Gratuitous personal attacks do little to further the forum and the discussions taking place within it. Please refrain from personal abuse of other Motiers. Posts which are unduly abusive, but still have valuable content, will at the host's decision be moved to the Inferno. The thread host will post to indicate what posts she/he has moved. Posts which are abusive and deemed without content by the host will be deleted. The author of any abusive post is subject, by the moderator's decision, to be suspended, and repetitive abusive posts will assuredly result in suspension. Rule 3)Respect the wishes of the Thread Hosts The thread hosts are volunteers chosen by the Moderator to further discussion and to moderate the tone of their own thread. Participants in any thread must accede to the wishes of the thread host regarding their behavior within the thread. The final judge of a thread host's decisions and behavior, and of the behavior of any Motier, is the Moderator, who possesses flexible executive power over the function of the Mote. If you have a complaint about a host's behavior, email the host and/or the Moderator. Any Motier may exercise fair comment about a Thread Host in the Policy Thread, sparingly as needed.
823. Angel-Five - 2/21/2000 10:47:59 AM Rule 4) Do Not Spam the Mote Most Motiers do not appreciate wading through reams of meaningless posts to follow a discussion. Please do not post advertisements or link sites which are not germane to the discussion. Please do not clutter the threads with off-topic posts. Do not directly paste images that may be offensive directly into the thread. Such posts will be removed at the decision of the thread host or Moderator, and repeated postings of this sort may result in suspension at the Moderator's decision. Rule 5)Respect the Laws of Free Speech The Mote aims at fostering free speech wherever possible, but unfortunately some sacrifices must be made in order for an online debate forum to function well. Please do not threaten any Motier with real-life consequences stemming from dialogue taking place within the Mote. Avoid making any posts which would subject the forum or the poster to legal action. These posts will be removed by the thread host or the moderator, and the poster will likely be banned from the forum at the decision of the Moderator. Rule 6) Respect the Wishes of the Moderator The Moderator, and Mote Staff, are all volunteers who donate a lot of their valuable time and effort to the maintenance and improvement of this forum. The Moderator, and Mote Staff, are all subject to the Rules of Engagement, but the Moderator otherwise wields total power within the Mote. What the Moderator rules may be fairly commented upon in Mote Policies, but all Motiers are subject to the rulings of the Moderator. The Moderator may grant limited or full power to other Staff members to act in conjunction with, or in the absence of, the Moderator or a Thread Host. These persons's actions are subject to the decision of the Moderator, and otherwise they are to be treated as Moderators. 824. Angel-Five - 2/21/2000 10:51:11 AM Just because Irving asked. 825. Angel-Five - 2/21/2000 10:53:25 AM Errata for rule 1):
Any Motier has the right to ask that any private information relating to them not be mentioned by anyone. Any Motier has the right to allow any and all Motiers to use any of their personal information as they see fit. 826. Seguine - 2/21/2000 10:55:22 AM My last was a response specifically to this:
"I don't see how it can be considered exploitation if the information was provided online and directly associated with the individual in question. I see no way for Wabbit to enforce this other than to determine if the post itself is abusive."
It doesn't have to qualify as "exploitation", any more than my disclosure of your id needed to be malevolent in any way for it to be prohibited. A disclosure need simply be against the rules. "Abuse" need not be determined by the moderator; "insult" or "attack" would suffice, which is why those words were included in my proposal. I'm confident Wabbit, as well as most of the hosts, are perfectly capable of noticing such things. The rule is not remotely unenforceable. 827. Angel-Five - 2/21/2000 11:15:00 AM No debate? Good, then, the motion carries (whack). Anything else? Moving right along.... 828. Angel-Five - 2/21/2000 11:26:30 AM Next on the agenda, the big marble 'The Mote' banner with the giant stuffed olive in the corner. There is no question that it has to be removed, post haste. I suggest something slightly more attractive, like a large neon sign which reads The Mote, Home of Angel-Five And His Endless Supply Of Good Ideas in all its dazzling truth. Or in honor of the departed PE we could name it'The Sacrament'. and have a few dancing nun gifs in the banner.
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